Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests
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Request name | Motions | Initiated | Votes |
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Ongoing problems surrounding Yasuke | 16 September 2024 | 4/0/0 |
Request name | Motions | Case | Posted |
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Amendment request: Definition of the "area of conflict" Clause 4 (b) | Motion | (orig. case) | 26 July 2024 |
Amendment request: Palestine-Israel articles (AE referral) | Motion | (orig. case) | 17 August 2024 |
Clarification request: Conduct in deletion-related editing | none | (orig. case) | 8 September 2024 |
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Ongoing problems surrounding Yasuke
Initiated by Yvan Part (talk) at 11:20, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
Proposed parties
- Yvan Part (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), filing party
- BrocadeRiverPoems (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Gitz6666 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- J2UDY7r00CRjH (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Rotary Engine (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Symphony Regalia (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Tinynanorobots (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
- diff of notification BrocadeRiverPoems
- diff of notification Gitz6666
- diff of notification J2UDY7r00CRjH
- diff of notification Rotary Engine
- diff of notification Symphony Regalia
- diff of notification Tinynanorobots
- Confirmation that other steps in dispute resolution have been tried
- RSN:Are news sources reliable for articles on history? (ongoing)
- RSN:Reliability of Thomas Lockley
- RSN:Reliability of The Japan Times?
- RfC 1
- RfC 2 (ongoing)
- Extreme talk page growth. (it went from one tp archive in 17 years to 6 in the last 5 months by my count)
- ANI:Possible False Accusation
- ANI:Talk: Yasuke has on-going issues
- ANI:Talk:Yasuke is a complete dumpster fire
- ANI:Blatant trolling by User:12.75.41.40
- ANI:User:Nocomputersintexas harassment and aspersions
- ANI:Disruptive gaming of autoconfirmed status followed by attempt to edit semi-protected page
- ANI:User: Hopefull Innformer
Statement by Yvan Part
Normal consensus building around the article Yasuke has completely broken down and the talkpage has become rife with endless debates about rules interpretations, bludgeoning and extreme entrenchment.
One example is a discussion around the replacement of one tertiary source which has led to a still going talkpage discussion (over 14000 words and over a month old) and the ongoing RSN mentioned earlier which itself seems to be leading nowhere due to general vagueness.
The ongoing RfC has been massively bludgeoned (over 30000 words in two weeks) leading to very few uninvolved editors participating. My own comment on it after it had been open for only a week was already very critical about the bludgeoning.
All of this leads to frequent ANI visits, either for obvious vandals, harassers and povpushers which are frequently attracted to the topic and led to the page being protected four times in the last five months ([1][2][3][4]) as well as three times for its talkpage ([1][2][3]) or between editors who have participated to discussions for a while and have apparently reached their boiling point against another.
An assessment that the topic has problems is shared by uninvolved long time editors in offhand comments here, here and here and that additional remedies might be required.
Some of the problems spill over into connected articles such as Thomas Lockley, List of foreign-born samurai in Japan and Samurai which see some petty vandalism, pov pushing and edit warring though to a much lesser degree than Yasuke.
I also believe my complaint against Symphony Regalia in the most recent ANI section was not properly evaluated (reasoning provided here) but decided not to pursue further at ANI after making the decision to come to ArbCom.
Statement by BrocadeRiverPoems
I am commenting only to state that I wish to have no part in this. I do not wish to participate in editing the Yasuke article, or having anything to do with any of the ancillary elements of it going forward. As I am presently on a break and will be around infrequently, I wish to have nothing to do with whatever is discussed or decided here, and am providing whatever notification might be necessary from me to the effect of stating I will not be keeping up to date with this. After the ANI discussion, I concluded it would be better for me to simply WP:DISENGAGE from all things Yasuke, and I believe other editors more experienced than I held the same sentiment that it would be better for me to leave such contentious topics alone.--Brocade River Poems (She/They) 11:37, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
Edit: I am updating my statement to briefly comment on my activity as this is about conduct and not content. I created the second RfC because when I tried to add a tweet by Hirayama Yu saying Yasuke was a Samurai, it was disputed Special:Diff/1237845246 Special:Diff/1237846490 Special:Diff/1237849580 Special:Diff/1237850766 Special:Diff/1237852447 Special:Diff/1237852447. The result of the dispute was a compromise to create an RfC as users thought it was unfair to add Hirayama Yu without adding Goza, and it was agreed a second RfC would be needed to incldue Goza. It was requested by a disputing party who wanted to add Goza to wait at least a month before creating said RfC in case new publications came out or Goza retracted his statement. Special:Diff/1237866505 Special:Diff/1237869174 Special:Diff/1237877741. I was not trying to engage in a culture war or trying to disprove Yasuke as a samurai, the RfC was agreed upon for dispute resolution to try to include the compromise that was reached. After the time requested had elapsed, I created the RfC since the other parties had not done so yet. I understand the RfC and the argumentation that arose from it was far from ideal, but I just wanted to explain why I even made it. Regardless, I no longer wish to participate in Yasuke going forward, but do believe some contentious topic policy for Yasuke is advisable. --Brocade River Poems (She/They) 21:32, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Gitz6666
The problem with the article, as I see it, is that many editors (often IPs and newly created accounts) do not accept the outcome of the recent RfC, which concluded that Yasuke should be described as a "samurai". This has led to:
- Frequent attempts to remove the word "samurai" from the article, especially from the lead section.
- Long and tedious discussions on the talk page. Since there are no sources denying Yasuke's samurai status or addressing the issue in depth, most discussions revolve around the critical analysis of 16th- and 17th-century Japanese and Portuguese sources (e.g., here, here and in multiple threads). These discussions seem to be over now, but they went on for a long time despite various attempts to explain that this kind of source evaluation borders on original research. Secondly, the discussions concern whether to remove certain news sources (CNN, TIME, Smithsonian magazine) that refer to Yasuke as a samurai. Some editors consider these sources to be of lesser quality and want to remove them, even though they are not contradicted by academic sources (see second part of this discussion and the thread at RSN).
- A new RfC opened by an inexperienced user notewithstanding the lack of significant new sources. Some editors active on the article, who are interested in debating Yasuke's samurai status, supported this new RfC, resulting in another significant waste of time.
I have no opinion on what actions ArbCom might take to address these issues, but in the ongoing RfC, I proposed a one-year moratorium on new RfCs regarding the same topic [1]. If there were a consensus on this, I believe it would be very helpful. I expect that editors from the gamer community and neto-uyo will soon lose interest in the topic. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 12:55, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
Statement by J2UDY7r00CRjH
I hesitate to agree to moratorium to the discussion of Yasuke because 1. the current dispute about the new sources has not been resolved and more importantly 2. if more sources come out the moratorium will be used to not include them. For background, the entire reason for the discussion is about whether to include specific points mentioned by mainly two sources. One source is a historian, Yuichi Goza, who according to his research page specializes in studying samurai [2], who said we should be cautious in saying Yasuke was a samurai because the evidence for it is only from one version of a manuscript not found in other copies. The other source is Thomas Lockley who said 'there is debate as to whether Yasuke truly became a "samurai," but it is believed that, at least for his lifetime, he was undoubtedly appointed as a vassal of Nobunaga.' Both these sources came out after the closing of the previous RfC. (One was published before but not yet translated.) To be clear, I am a proponent of adding the view that some historians believe there is not enough information to conclude whether or not Yasuke was a samurai to the article. The opposing view says that there are not enough sources to warrant their inclusion. Note that the majority of academic sources just say he served Nobunaga or was his retainer and do not discuss whether he was a samurai, and almost every source says there is little information about Yasuke in general. (see Talk:Yasuke/Archive 5 and search for "scholarly sources which mention Yasuke" for a list) To elaborate more on my point about more sources potentially coming out, just last week, a historian mainly of Chinese history wrote that "In the end, due to the absolute lack of historical materials, it is impossible to determine whether Yasuke was a samurai or not."(source in Japanese) One might argue that we shouldn't use that source because the author is not an expert in Japanese history specifically, but in general it seems likely to me that more reliable sources will write about this topic in the future. Lastly, the whole idea of making every change through an RfC is flawed because it requires uninvolved editors to read all the sources as a prerequisite, and in some cases to know the timeline of these sources. Edit: Just right now, I also found another source saying there may not be enough information, written by 渡邊大門, a PhD in history: [3], which seems to not be discussed here or ja wiki. I think that shows the sources have not been fully discussed, and there is no reason to preemptively end the discussion. edit2: and now another source just published by an official university newspaper today quoting an Assistant Professor, also mentioning that there is some ambiguity [4]
I am not sure what steps arbitration could take to resolve this dispute. Hopefully this background is helpful to someone who reads it. J2UDY7r00CRjH (talk) 15:18, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Rotary Engine
In the time since the case request was made, I have considered carefully what to write here.
Firstly, the Committee seems inclined to accept the request. I believe that is the right decision, and both thank the Committee for their decision and apologise for the burden in advance.
That the Community has been unable to find resolution on several aspects of this dispute is an important factor in the decision to accept, and, I suggest, where editor behaviour is the reason for that inability, that behaviour should be examined as part of the scope.
I am heartened by the acceptance statements of Guerillero & Primefac; that the focus should be on conduct of involved parties. I suggest that there is ample evidence that conduct has fallen short of our accepted standards, particularly as regards:
- misinterpretation &/or misapplication of core policy (WP:OR, WP:NPOV, etc)
- tendentious source selection
- bludgeoning of discussions
- derailing of discussions
I am disheartened, however, by comments which focus on external commentary by "Gamergaters" & Netto-uyoku.
While our article on Yasuke has been the subject of discussion in those groups; and there is evidence of IP editors & new accounts arriving to affect article content, to the extent that this has been disruptive, it has largely been dealt with using page protection & reverts of vandalistic edits. This aspect, while certainly present, is not what the Community has failed to resolve.
A narrative focused solely on external "culture war", and a case with a corresponding scope, would both ignore that there is an historical personage about whom there is diversity of opinion, and fail to address the significant issues of behaviour by established editors.
Where editors, new or old, make reasonable, policy aligned contributions to discussions, those contributions should be addressed in good faith. In some cases, they have not been.
I am particularly saddened by the withdrawal of BrocadeRiverPoems from the topic area. Though we have disagreed strongly at times, their contributions to this topic, while occasionally verbose, have been cogent and constructive. I apologise for any role I may have played in their decision to withdraw.
Again, I thank the Committee for their time & effort in taking on this case.
Rotary Engine talk 02:26, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Symphony Regalia
I agree with Gitz, Loki, and Pinguinn. The recent RfC was done excellently in my opinion, however Yasuke has been the target of the right-wing culture warrior crowd[5]. The main issues are:
1. That people who are convinced he isn't one, because they just know, or because they read it as a part of the aforementioned culture war over a video game[6] push the fringe POV that Yasuke was not a samurai in contrast to reliable sourcing.
2. This is mostly in the form of new users drawn here by culture war issues removing mentions of "samurai" and replacing them with sometimes racially derogatory terms, calling him a "bodyguard" or a "retainer", endlessly conducting WP:OR on talk pages, or starting redundant RfCs.
The Yasuke article saw an absurd amount of vandalism when said video game trailer came out and if anything I think general sanctions (not unlike Gamergate sanctions, perhaps a category for culture war subjects based on diversity) would be potentially appropriate to prevent continued disruption. That being said, as mentioned editors were indeed able to establish a very clear RfC consensus[7], so I do think that demonstrates overall that the community was able to come together.
I'm not sure what the threshold for a full arbcom case is, but my recommendations would be:
- EC protection on Yasuke.
- A moratorium on redundant RfCs, as well as stricter enforcement of the recent RfC consensus which is frequently disregarded by new users and culture war vandals.
As for Yvan Part's comment toward me, it was indeed heard and editors did not find it convincing[8]. Yvan Part is a new account that was created the day the trailer for the video game featuring Yasuke was released, and within 2 hours of account creation went on to argue on Yasuke-related talk pages to push the fringe POV that he is not a samurai[9].
On July 1st, one day after the previous RfC closed with an overwhelming consensus, Yvan Part demonstrated intent to violate it and called it disgusting
[10].
On August 2nd Yvan Part went on to attempt to sidestep the RfC consensus by adding "despite the ambiguous definition of samurai during this period" to water down the assertion in an undue fashion[11]
On August 6th Yvan Part outright removed "samurai" from the lede in violation of the spirit of the RfC[12]. This was opposed by me and he did it again with a misleading edit summary, calling it a "slight modification"[13].
On August 20th he attempted to remove "samurai" from the lede yet again in violation of the RfC[14].
Vandalism on the article is overall down which is a good thing (though that might change in a renewed news cycle), but I do think the above behavior is a strong of example of why EC protection and/or stronger RfC enforcement would be useful. Cheers Symphony Regalia (talk) 01:17, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Tinynanorobots
I think that there are some inherent difficulties with writing an article about Yasuke, he has received little academic attention until recently, and there are few academic works about him. The primary sources about him are few, so that means that it is relatively easy for an editor to have read all the primary sources, and the temptation to feel that one is an expert on Yasuke after an hour’s reading is there. Additionally, a lot of the terminology is vague and broad, both in the primary sources as in the secondary sources. For example, some secondary sources describe him as a spear bearer, others as a sword bearer, but most as a weapon bearer. There is, however, little information, at least in English, detailing what these roles are besides the obvious literal interpretation. Another problem I have realized, researching for this article and for the Samurai article, is that terminology used for Samurai history is unclear. When translated to English terms, the meanings don’t quite match up, and some words don’t have strict conventions. When the Japanese words are used, it is hard to look up the meaning without knowledge of Japanese. The word retainer can be the translation of several Japanese words, at least some of which have different meanings. The word that is probably the most difficult is samurai. Several experts have said, in the context of Yasuke, that the word was ambiguous or vague during this period. Even during the Edo Period, its meaning seems to have varied from domain to domain.
It also doesn’t help that the main researcher, Thomas Lockley seems to have overlooked some questions that he could have answered, but also doesn’t communicate clearly. The fact that his book contains both fact and fictional dramatization is the biggest example, but he also makes statements that can be interpreted different ways by different editors. It doesn’t help that misinformation has spread in certain online echo chambers about him, that is both slanderous and stupid. So it can hard to determine what is factual.
This whole process is made more difficult by the single-minded focus on Yasuke´s status as a samurai by some editors. This group of hardliners, oppose any changing of Yasuke´s status as a samurai, but interpret every change as touching Yasuke´s status. One sees this in the response to attempts to remove repetition and clunkiness from the lead. diff Small uncontroversial changes were undone, based on association with controversial changesdiff. Added to this, interesting interpretations of Wikipedia policy were asserted in chat, such as that "scholarly" was a weasel word, in the context of which sources were more appropriate/reliable.diff The extremity to which the focus on samurai status and neglect of the bigger picture of the article is visible in the lead. A recent example was that a sentence was repeated twice in a rowdiff.
I think there was a problem with WP:OR, there was certainly a problem with using the talk page as a forum, but that stopped in July. I think that a lot of what is being considered OR, is a comparison of different secondary sources, with an occasional use of primary and tertiary sources. I also think it is appropriate to use one’s basic knowledge of the time period as a starting point for investigation. Of course, this should be followed up by sources.
It also appears that the Yasuke page has a bad reputation among editors that aren’t directly involved in it. This is probably due to the culture war going around. The assumption here is that every editor who wants to make a change is a gategamer and Japanese nationalist, and thus their edits are suspect. New editors are especially suspect. This seems to go against assume good faith and welcome newcomers. Editors such as myself are assumed to believe that Yasuke is not a samurai, just because we seek compromise, try to change sources, or otherwise improve the article. In retrospect, this explains why Regalia Symphony followed me to the Samurai article and reverted my edits. My edits didn’t appear to me to be related to Yasuke, but they were related to (insufficient, imho) arguments against Yasuke being a samurai. This also explains how Regalia Symphony could so easily use flimsy and shifting accusations to save himself during the ANI. RS especially has tried to use policy and proposed sanctions to stop discussions that he views as against the RfC. This happened at the cost of discussion and consensus building.
As I started this article, I was unsure if Yasuke was a samurai, but I first heard about Yasuke from Anthony Cummins, who believes that Yasuke is a samurai and even interviewed Lockley about it. I have done research outside of Wikipedia, and have less doubt about whether Yasuke is a samurai, but at the same time, more understanding what that means. The main problem being the usage of the term samurai and that the conventual wisdom on its meaning is being challenged by historians. Thomas Conlan has even said that the samurai class probably wasn’t a legally recognized class till the Tokugawa period. The majority opinion seems to me to be "Yasuke was a samurai*". Gitz and Regalia Symphony have both falsely said that I supported the RfC to depict Yasuke´s status as disputed. I have criticized both sides of the Yasuke is a samurai dispute, and have consistently opposed describing his status as disputed. I also criticized the double standard that Regalia Symphony has towards "reliable sources" and his interpretation of the "Weasel Words" policy. The fact that those two so little understand what I said, shows how much they truly paid attention.
Statement by Pinguinn
I have not edited in this area but I am familiar with the nature of the dispute and why it is so contentious. This all started with Yasuke's inclusion in Assassin's Creed Shadows and his portrayal as a samurai in that game. Ultimately it all stems from online disputes about diversity in video games that have bled onto Wikipedia, in a manner similar to what prompted the GamerGate case. Sweet Baby Inc. has been another page caught up in this "culture war".
The GamerGate case authorized discretionary sanctions for pages related to GamerGate or gender related controversies, which were later replaced by GENSEX CT sanctions. Yasuke and related pages have not been eligible for any CT because despite dealing with similar issues related to a similar dispute, they do not relate to gender or sexuality. In my opinion some kind of CT designation for Yasuke or a wider area such as "culture war issues in video games" is needed. It could potentially solve the problems in this area without a full case. Pinguinn 🐧 18:05, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
Statement by LokiTheLiar
My general impression as someone who has edited this area is very similar to Gitz and Pinguinn. A page about a minor historical figure that was previously pretty stable and unremarkable has suddenly gotten a lot of attention due to Gamergate-adjacent types, and as a consequence a whole host of new or inexperienced editors now want to remove the word "samurai" from the article in contravention of the sources.
When asked what sources support their position, they cannot give any and insist instead on WP:OR attempts to discredit the sources that disagree with them. Because of this, they lost an RFC on the issue already, and are now attempting to run a second RFC on the same issue under a month later under three months later. Furthermore, this has not been limited to just Talk:Yasuke but has spiraled out to all sorts of other noticeboards, which have very much failed to do anything serious about this problem, therefore ArbCom intervention is necessary.
I agree with Pinguinn's proposed solution of spinning out a second CT from Gamergate instead of just GENSEX. Loki (talk) 20:45, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
@CaptainEek I do think "culture wars in video games" is a pretty good scope for any eventual CT, but would like to add the caveat that the majority of the recent disruption has been happening to Yasuke specifically. There were also some previous issues with Sweet Baby Inc but I think those have mostly blown over by themselves, though I'm not 100% sure. Loki (talk) 20:59, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Masem (uninvolved)
Not involved with any of the talk discussions but I am fully aware that there is the issue that Pinguinn has outlined, that there is a new wave of Gamergate type activity that a high profile video game is triggering, so it is not unreasonable to apply GG DS, as well to take input from new/IP with a lot of salt if they are trying to push against the established academic literature on a cultural figure.Masem (t) 23:23, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Robert McClenon (Yasuke)
The filing party has demonstrated that there are continuing disputes in this topic area that the community is not handling successfully. I think it is reasonably clear that the disputes involve conduct as well as content, and that conduct is preventing the orderly solution of content issues. Since the community has not been successful in resolving the disputes, ArbCom should take action. That action should include declaring the topic of Yasuke, broadly construed, including video games featuring Yasuke, to be a contentious topic. I do not think that it matters whether the contentious topic is defined as a separate topic, or defined to be within the scope of the Gamergate case.
I think that ArbCom has two choices as to how to deal with this topic. The first is the "traditional" ArbCom approach of a full case with evidence, to identify the editors who have been the most serious contributors to the disruption, and sanctioning those editors, and then turning the topic over to the administrators at Arbitration Enforcement. The second approach would be to declare the topic to be contentious, and to let the administrators at Arbitration Enforcement identify and sanction the offenders.
My suggestion is that ArbCom should ask the administrators at Arbitration Enforcement whether they are ready and willing to identify and sanction the offenders, or whether they want a traditional evidentiary phase first. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:15, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
- Another attempt to resolve this dispute besides those listed by the filing editor was a request at the dispute resolution noticeboard on 14 September 2024: [15]. This request was closed for various procedural reasons, as well as because an RFC in process appeared to overlap the DRN request. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:27, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
- I agree that "Was Yasuke a samurai?" is a content question, but it is a content question that Wikipedia does not answer, because the question is: "Do reliable sources describe Yasuke as a samurai?" The multiple RFCs on various forms of that question illustrate that there is tendentious editing with regard to that question, and that is a conduct matter that ArbCom should deal with, either with a full case or by delegating it to Arbitration Enforcement.
- I agree with Captain Eek that the topic of conflict may be more generally "Culture wars in video games". For that reason, I think that a full case is in order, to identify both the scope of the conflict and the editors to be sanctioned. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:34, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Alanscottwalker
I just looked at the article, for the first time and to be clear the article does not say "is/was", it says "served as". It sounds like there could be several ways to support that from what is said above (perhaps consider dropping a note) but I suggest in part, understanding the dispute and the conduct is also being mindful of precise context. That said, I think it would be good for the committee to take this case so as to further the template for handling these off-wiki "culture wars" that have been and will be in the future (unfortunately) brought on-wiki. If the evidence warrants it, you may even want to think hard on formulating principles that specifically address "culture wars". Alanscottwalker (talk) 12:05, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Seraphimblade
When we handled the original GamerGate case, we really probably should have put in a remedy concerning video game "culture war" stuff in general, but the whole thing was such a godawful mess that I'm not surprised something got overlooked. I hope the current ArbCom will correct that, since clearly the disruption is spilling outside the GENSEX area. Seraphimblade Talk to me 20:14, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Chaotic Enby
As the person who opened the first ANI thread on this topic, I can see that the "dumpster fire" has kept repeatedly going in flames since then, and that arbitration remedies are definitely needed at this point. Given how far removed this topic is from GENSEX, it would make more sense to consolidate it and GamerGate into a new, separate CT. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 04:30, 21 September 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Just Step Sideways
Well since we're talking GamerGate I thought I'd pop in. It's been a while since the committee accepted a case that revolved around basically one single article, but clearly the community is struggling here and needs some help.
This doesn't fit under the current CTOP but I could certainly see expanding it in order to accomplish that.
Although a different dispute, there are clearly some of the same underlying issues involving the toxicity that is sadly all too prevalent in gamer culture. We didn't go beyond the single issue at the time because it was a giant toxic monster that was consuming our lives and we just wanted it to be over. I volunteered to be a drafter exactly because my term was ending and I knew once that decison came out I'd be done, but a decade later I'm still not sure I'd volunteer again, and that's even given that I got the flu in the middle of the whole thing and as a result David did most of the actual work. Just Step Sideways from this world ..... today 20:22, 21 September 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Silverseren
I think we are long past the point where Gamergate needs to be a separate CT from GENSEX or we need some sort of broader CT covering this topic area. While Gamergate may have started with a heavy focus on sexism and harassment of women, it has broadened in the decade since into any and all kinds of bigotry. A lot of that recently does still involve things like attacking as many trans people as possible, yes, but it also has involved quite a lot of racism and a variety of general bigoted harassment that isn't covered specifically under GENSEX. Yasuke is only one example of many of this. And since the Gamergate group has also gotten significantly involved in general conservative culture war issues, such as anything involving CRT, DEI, and anything "woke" in general, we really need a broader CT coverage area. SilverserenC 04:06, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
Statement by {Non-party}
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the case request or provide additional information.
Ongoing problems surrounding Yasuke: Clerk notes
- This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).
Ongoing problems surrounding Yasuke: Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter <4/0/0>
Vote key: (Accept/decline/recuse)
- Accept I would think that this could be resolved at AN(I), but it appears that it was not. Since the community got several bites at the apple but it has not been resolved, I am okay with ArbCom action here. Please remember that we are going to look at conduct, not content, issues. "Was Yasuke a samurai?" is a question only the community can resolve and then only through discussion. --Guerillero Parlez Moi 07:12, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
- Accept per Guerillero, with further emphasis that we would be looking at conduct of involved parties. Primefac (talk) 11:59, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
- I lean towards framing the issue more broadly as "culture wars in video games," but would be interested in hearing more from folks about whether that's a good scope or not. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 19:51, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
- I am open to it if we can describe the modern culture war in the west in a way better than "I know it when I see it" -- -- Guerillero Parlez Moi 07:18, 18 September 2024 (UTC)
- Accept clearly there's some issue here that we should solve. I lean towards a broad scope; I understand that "culture wars in video games" has some definitional issues, but I don't know that we have to nail down a definition yet. I suspect the discussion over how to phrase any potential CT will be a key part of the case. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 03:44, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
- I am open to it if we can describe the modern culture war in the west in a way better than "I know it when I see it" -- -- Guerillero Parlez Moi 07:18, 18 September 2024 (UTC)
- Accept - I'm also tentatively open to the scope including more than just this article's subject, though either way this issue in particular appears to be something that is ready for an arbitration case. - Aoidh (talk) 03:22, 20 September 2024 (UTC)
Use this section to request clarification or amendment of a closed Arbitration Committee case or decision.
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Amendment request: Definition of the "area of conflict" Clause 4 (b)
Initiated by Selfstudier at 13:43, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
- Case or decision affected
- Palestine-Israel articles 4 arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)
- Clauses to which an amendment is requested
- List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request
- Selfstudier (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)
- Barkeep49 (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
- Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
- Information about amendment request
- Wikipedia:Contentious topics/Arab–Israeli conflict#Definition of the "area of conflict"
- Change userspace to talkspace
Statement by Selfstudier
To match WP:ECR (Idk if it is worth changing both to link to namespace 1).
@Barkeep49: @Zero0000: The discussion here refers (at the bottom)
@Zero0000: Not only. See Barkeep49 statement at the relevant AE complaint (still open) However, I will note that the contradiction between the "topic area" as defined and what areas ECR do not allow for is present. And so in a different scenario I would say this user shouldn't have to eat a block that could then be escalated if there are future transgressions. However, given that there was other conduct leading to a topic ban that factor doesn't seem to apply here.
To be clear, my opinion is that ECR, being later, should take precedence but that's just me.Selfstudier (talk) 08:43, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
And now, the same technicality being referred to by another editor. Selfstudier (talk) 10:42, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
@Zero0000: I am only "proposing" that this "technicality" which has not been identified by myself, be fixed up, I'm just initiating the paperwork, to the extent anyone thinks that it is required. What I want is that it not be available as a defense by non EC editors, currently two of them mentioning it, and I suspect more inbound if left unresolved. If there is another way to clean it up, I'm all ears. And @Doug Weller: has now raised the question indirectly as well https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration_Committee/Noticeboard&curid=21090546&diff=1237149351&oldid=1236465052#Why_does_ARPBIA_allow_userspace_as_an_exception? Selfstudier (talk) 12:10, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
@Sir Kenneth Kho: Many thanks for clarifying my inept proposal. For me, though, ECR should function like a tban, "any edits that relate to the Arab-Israeli conflict (broadly construed) anywhere on Wikipedia" Selfstudier (talk) 17:55, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
@Guerillero: Depends what you mean by edge case, if you mean that it isn't usually a problem, sure. However recently, I don't know quite how to put it, there has been a sort of assault on ECR, which you could, at a pinch, just call wikilawyering. See for example, Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Emdosis and the comment by an admin there, "I wouldn't immediately understand "userspace" to apply to another user's talk page in this case – seems more like wikilawyering than anything else to say that this edit falls outside of the CT regime. We can drag this to ARCA if we have to, but just agreeing that the filer made a vexatious argument is easier." (I won't name them, since they don't want to be here, methinks). Selfstudier (talk) 17:40, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Barkeep49
There is a small mismatch between the area of scope and ECR and perhaps arbcom wants to fix that. Perhaps it doesn't. I'm not sure why I am involved in this case. Barkeep49 (talk) 14:58, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Zero0000
Can we have this request actually explained, please?
I don't see any contradiction between "userspace" in "area of conflict" and "talkspace" at ECR. They serve different purposes.
One place says that the "area of conflict" does not extend to userspace (which implies that it does extend to talkspace). ECR indicates that talkspace has some differences in restrictions compared to article space. Both these make sense and can be true at the same time. We definitely do not want the "area of conflict" to exclude talkspace, because then the ECR restrictions on talkspace would not apply to it.
Or maybe I missed the point entirely. Zerotalk 15:14, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
- To editor Selfstudier: So a messy argument on some user's talk page is what counts as an explanation?
As I see it, Definition of the "area of conflict" defines which pages and edits are subject to editing restrictions in ARBPIA, and WP:ARBECR says what those restrictions are. I don't see any contradiction there, and it seems to me that changing "userspace" to "talkspace" in the former would remove article talk pages from the area of conflict and disable all the restrictions there. Zerotalk 02:43, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
To editor Selfstudier: The contradiction you claim to exist actually does not exist. Let's start at ECR:
- "
The Committee may apply the "extended confirmed restriction" to specified topic areas.
" So now, we ask, what is the "topic area" in the case of ARBPIA? That sentence has a footnote: - "
The current topic areas under this restriction are listed as having the "extended confirmed restriction" in the table of active Arbitration Committee sanctions.
" So we click on that link and find a big table. ARBPIA is near the end. It says: - "
The entire set of articles whose topic relates to the Arab-Israeli conflict, broadly interpreted; edits relating to the Arab-Israeli conflict, to pages and discussions in all namespaces with the exception of userspace.
" (my emphasis) So in fact ECR agrees with WP:Contentious_topics/Arab–Israeli conflict#Definition of the "area_of_conflict" that edits in userspace are not in the ARBPIA "topic area". Where is the contradiction?
I'll also repeat (please answer): You seem to be proposing that "edits relating to the Arab-Israeli conflict, to pages and discussions in all namespaces with the exception of userspace" at WP:Contentious_topics/Arab–Israeli conflict#Definition of the "area_of_conflict" be changed to "edits relating to the Arab-Israeli conflict, to pages and discussions in all namespaces with the exception of talkspace". Why does that make any sense? You want to remove talkspace from the topic area?? Zerotalk 11:54, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
To editor Selfstudier: If arbcom wish to undo the exclusion of userspace from the ARBPIA topic area, that's their decision, but your proposal does much more than that. Zerotalk 12:25, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
If a change to the status of userspace is to be considered, I suggest that arbcom consider all CT topics and not just ARBPIA. Personally I don't understand why an editor should be forbidden from mentioning the topic in their own user space (unless they are actively disruptive there). For example, an editor who is approaching 500 edits may develop some text in their sandbox for insertion into articles once EC is achieved — isn't that perfectly reasonable? An editor who abuses this allowance (say, by excessive pings) can be dealt with easily. Zerotalk 04:37, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Sean.hoyland
Maybe this revert I did a couple of days ago is a useful test. Is the revert valid or invalid under the remedies? Sean.hoyland (talk) 12:51, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Sir Kenneth Kho
This amendment request came to my attention after @Doug Weller: pointed it to me, I believe I can provide some clarity for the arbitrators.
I think there is an error in the request as pointed out by @Zero0000: the intended request is likely "remove exception of userspace" instead of "change userspace to talkspace" in WP:PIA, and the opposing side would be "add exception of userspace" to WP:ECR.
The answer would depend on whether arbitrators intended WP:ECR A(1) to overrule or uphold WP:PIA 4(B), if there is an answer, we are done.
If arbitrators did not consider it at all, the strongest argument for the initiating side would be WP:BROADLY, as the broadest possible thing would be no exception to userspace.
I'm arguing in favor of the opposing side, the strongest argument would be WP:UOWN, as userspace is traditionally given broad latitude too, it seems that WP:ECR and WP:UOWN should have their own jurisdiction, and on the balance WP:ECR should not be excessively broad.
@Selfstudier: nicely pointed to WP:TBAN in support of the initiating side, but it is worth noting that WP:TBAN is intended to "forbid editors from making edits related to a certain topic area where their contributions have been disruptive", while WP:GS is intended to "improve the editing atmosphere of an article or topic area", which applies here as WP:GS specifically includes "Extended confirmed restriction". Sir Kenneth Kho (talk) 16:50, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
- @L235 I think Remedy 9 repeal is possibly long overdue, it was written in 2015, and it only reminds the obvious that admins can use indefinite blocks, which is true even outside CTOP. Sir Kenneth Kho (talk) 23:24, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Callanecc
My understanding is that"
- #1 in the 'Definition of the "area of conflict"' applies CTOP, ECR and 1RR to all articles broadly related to the Arab-Israeli conflict.
- #2 in the 'Definition of the "area of conflict"' applies CTOP, ECR and 1RR applies to all other pages except userpages and user talk pages if 'General sanctions upon related content' applies.
- 'General sanctions upon related content' requires that before CTOP, ECR and 1RR are applied to any page other than an article the enforcement templates have been added to that page which is "only when disruption creates a need for additional administrative tools" and that this can never happen on userpages or user talk pages.
Unless thought through extensively, there is a potential contradiction between what is defined as related content:
- The 'Definition of the "area of conflict"' decision says that related content is edits relating to the Arab-Israeli conflict, to pages and discussions in all namespaces with the exception of userspace (that is, not articles).
- 'General sanctions upon related content' says it applies to related content but then redefines this is (i.e. pages not otherwise related to the area of conflict) which I suspect is intended to mean things defined above as 'related content' (not what is actually says which is pages not covered at all in the definition).
There is also the potential that any restiction (e.g. topic ban or 0RR) imposed under contentious topics cannot apply in userspace or could an editor be restricted for an edit on a userpage or user talk page.
To avoid the confusion and contradiction created I suggest that:
- "with the exception of userspace" is removed from the definition
- "(i.e. pages not otherwise related to the area of conflict)" is replaced with "(see [[#Definition of the "area of conflict"]])".
- Then either:
- A decision is added to the index explicitly allowing CTOP restrictions to apply to edits made in relation to related content anywhere on Wikipedia to close the loophole currently exempting userspace completely. This would mean, however, that to be covered user talk pages would need to have the enforcement templates on them.
- OR
- An exemption is added so that the requirements of "General sanctions upon related content" are not applied to editor restrictions imposed under CTOP. This would be the closest to the current intent where editors could be restricted from related content based on and applying to all of their editing in the topic area regardless of whether pages have the enforcement templates on them or not.
Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 07:16, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Aoidh: See discussion here regarding the exemption for userspace. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 07:26, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
- Premeditated Chaos might remember more about the discussion and thinking behind this and my statement in general too. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 07:29, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
Statement by PMC
Callanecc, I'm afraid I don't recall in any greater depth than my comments at the workshop, sorry. The userspace exception was suggested by Huldra and Zero0000, who made some comments re: user talk pages that on review, look like reasonable concerns; whether or not they're still applicable I can't say. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 02:24, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Doug Weller
I think it would be easy to make it clear when mentioning talk space we meant user talk space and are not forbidding edit requests when the specific sanction allows them. Surely we don't want non-extended-confirmed-editors to be able add material to their own userspace they cannot added elsewhere. The purpose as I understand it of the 500 edits and 30 days is to enable them to learn our policies and guidelines and hopefully how to work constructively with others. I also think we don't want non-ecr users to use their talk space or the talk space of others to discuss the topic. Doug Weller talk 12:24, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
I would rather not name this but recently rsn into another editor with the same issue, but others convinced him he was wrong, although apparently he was right. Doug Weller talk 18:06, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Red-tailed hawk (Definition)
Is there a reason the proposed motion uses "broadly interpreted" instead of the standard "broadly construed"? Is there a difference in meaning we are supposed to infer, or are they one and the same for purposes of this motion? — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 18:26, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Super Goku V
Regarding the proposed Remedy 5: This is a hypothetical loophole situation, but one I believe is likely to happen at some point. Lets say there is a five paragraph section and User A places hidden comments covering paragraphs 2 and 3 during discussion at the talk page. User B thinks that paragraph 4 is also covered. If User B moves the hidden comment to cover paragraph 4, would that be fine under Remedy 5? Alternatively, could User B instead place new hidden comments covering paragraph 4 without adjusting the ones on paragraph 2 or 3 and be fine, if the first option is a violation? As far as I see, the only thing that cannot be done by a regular user is removing the hidden comment while moving it is fine. --Super Goku V (talk) 07:14, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
Statement by {other-editor}
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
Definition of the "area of conflict" Clause 4 (b): Clerk notes
- This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).
Definition of the "area of conflict" Clause 4 (b): Implementation notes
Clerks and Arbitrators should use this section to clarify their understanding of which motions are passing. These notes were last updated by an automatic check at 03:40, 31 January 2023 (UTC)
Motion name | Support | Oppose | Abstain | Passing | Support needed | Notes |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Motion: Definition of the "area of conflict" Clause 4 (b) | 0 | 1 | 0 | ![]() |
6 | |
Motion: Repealing primary articles/related content distinction | 1 | 1 | 0 | ![]() |
5 |
- Notes
Definition of the "area of conflict" Clause 4 (b): Arbitrator views and discussion
- At the moment, "userspace" (including user pages, user talk pages and subpages, "all of these pages") is (only) related content to the ARBPIA area as described at Wikipedia:Contentious topics/Arab–Israeli conflict § General sanctions upon related content. This leads to the following result, which is confusing to me:
- WP:ARBPIA's extended-confirmed restriction does not apply to:
- Edit requests in namespace 1 ("Talk"); RMs are not edit requests
- Any edits in namespace 2 ("User") or 3 ("User talk").
- All other contentious topics' extended-confirmed restriction does not apply to:
- Edit requests in namespace 1 ("Talk"); RMs are not edit requests
- WP:ARBPIA's extended-confirmed restriction does not apply to:
- I just wanted to note that I am aware of and am watching this discussion, but I would like to look more into the reasoning/history behind the current wording before commenting further. - Aoidh (talk) 02:30, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
- I don't see any contradiction between what WP:ECR says and what WP:CT/A-I describes; the CT page describes what is and is not under the ECR restriction in a way that is entirely compatible with the wording of ECR. ECR covers the area of conflict, and userspace is not in area of conflict. However it can be as "technically correct" as possible, but if it's confusing or seemingly incompatible to reasonable editors (which seems to be the case) then it's not doing it's purpose and needs to be rewritten or amended for clarity. If we're going to be imposing these atypical rules for this topic area then they need to be accessible and easily understood. - Aoidh (talk) 18:30, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
- Is this a real problem or an edge case? --Guerillero Parlez Moi 18:52, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
- I think one issue with this is that the "primary articles" and "related content" distinction has proven to be less useful with time. When the case was first decided, the extended confirmed restriction had not been established. (In fact, the ARBPIA 500/30 restriction is what eventually led to the adoption of WP:ARBECR.) Now, WP:ARBECR points A, B, and C establish the proper enforcement actions to be taken, without need for any reference to "primary articles" and "related content" — a distinction that few if any other cases maintain. I would therefore support a motion defining the "area of conflict" to simply be "the Arab-Israeli conflict, broadly interpreted", and making conforming edits to the rest of the case. (We can keep the templates, but the definitions of primary articles and related content will no longer be necessary in defining the scope of the restrictions.) Doing so would resolve this request and simplify the language going forward. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 01:43, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Red-tailed hawk: I would assume the two terms should be viewed identically. Further thoughts forthcoming — currently discussing among ourselves. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 18:29, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
Motion: Definition of the "area of conflict" Clause 4 (b)
For the purposes of editing restrictions in the ARBPIA topic area, the "area of conflict" shall be defined as the Arab-Israeli conflict, broadly interpreted.
- For this motion there are 10 active arbitrators. With 0 arbitrators abstaining, 6 support or oppose votes are a majority.
- Support
- Oppose
- While this would solve the confusion brought by the wording, it also further erodes the ways in which an editor can edit, despite there being no compelling evidence in this discussion of intractable disruption warranting this change. - Aoidh (talk) 07:03, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
- Abstain
- Arbitrator discussion
- I hope this matches L235's idea; I'm open to them changing the motion text if I missed something. It's a simple and clear solution, and simplifying confusing conditions that have actually caused confusion is good to me. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 14:17, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- I'm worried this motion fails to resolve what happens to Remedies 6-8, which rely on the distinction between primary articles and related content. See below for one alternative. KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 19:29, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks! ~ ToBeFree (talk) 19:35, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- I'm worried this motion fails to resolve what happens to Remedies 6-8, which rely on the distinction between primary articles and related content. See below for one alternative. KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 19:29, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
Motion: Repealing primary articles/related content distinction
Remedy 4 of the Palestine-Israel articles 4 case ("Definition of the 'area of conflict'") is amended to read as follows: For the purposes of editing restrictions in the ARBPIA topic area, the "area of conflict" is the Arab-Israeli conflict, broadly interpreted.
Remedy 5 is amended by appending the following text: The {{ArbCom Arab-Israeli editnotice}} editnotice and the {{ArbCom Arab-Israeli enforcement}} talk page notice should be used on pages within the area of conflict. When only parts of a page fall within the area of conflict, if there is confusion about which content is considered related, the content in question may be marked in the wiki source with an invisible comment. Once added by any editor, any marking, template, or editnotice may be removed only by an uninvolved administrator.
Remedy 6, Remedy 7, and Remedy 8 of the Palestine-Israel articles 4 case are repealed.
- For this motion there are 10 active arbitrators. With 0 arbitrators abstaining, 6 support or oppose votes are a majority.
- Support
- Oppose
- Per my reasoning above. - Aoidh (talk) 07:05, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
- Abstain
- Arbitrator discussion
- Posting for discussion, per internal disucssion with ToBeFree. The issue with the previous motion is that Remedy 6-8 rely on the "primary articles" and "related content" distinction, and establish some special rules that are not found in the rest of the CTOP/ARBECR world. This motion would retain some of the guidance on the templates but broadly eliminate the formal differences in enforcement rules. One other option is to bring some of the rules from ARBPIA into the broader arbitration enforcement procedures. I think there is some merit in that idea — currently, all WP:CTOP says about scoping is one sentence (
Unless otherwise specified, contentious topics are broadly construed; this contentious topics procedure applies to all pages broadly related to a topic, as well as parts of other pages that are related to the topic.
) and one footnote (This procedure applies to edits and pages in all namespaces. When considering whether edits fall within the scope of a contentious topic, administrators should be guided by the principles outlined in the topic ban policy.
). If it would be useful to import some language from Remedy 6-8, that could be on the table. But there may not be much appetite for doing so, in which case we can just adopt the motion as drafted here. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 19:29, 21 August 2024 (UTC)- I do like this motion as is already! Thanks for creating it; I hadn't noticed the need for adjusting the other remedies as well. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 19:38, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Aoidh: I would consider that if we want to exempt userspace from WP:ARBECR, the more appropriate way to do so would be by amending the text at WP:ARBECR. I think there's a strong interest in standardization, so I would rather have separate up-or-down votes on those two things, and then it would seem logical for you to support both of those motions. Curious for your thoughts. KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 00:22, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- I think there's merit to the primary article distinction. This is a sprawling topic area; not on the scale of some contentious topics, but still broad. And there's a difference between the core set of articles that document the conflict and other articles that are not necessarily about the conflict but the related disputes spill over. Ideally, editors should be able to work on articles about the culture and history of the region without big scary ArbCom notices, at least until there are problems. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 21:30, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
- @HJ Mitchell: I guess the question is whether it'd be worth codifying this distinction for the other CTOP areas as well. We can go in the other direction and borrow some of this language for use in the broader enforcement procedures — ARBPIA is not particularly unique in the sense of being a broad topic area. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 16:00, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
Amendment request: Palestine-Israel articles (AE referral)
Initiated by Red-tailed hawk at 17:38, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- Case or decision affected
- Palestine-Israel articles 4 arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t) and related AE thread.
- Clauses to which an amendment is requested
- Pursuant to WP:CTOP#Referrals from Arbitration Enforcement noticeboard to the full Committee, a recent Arbitration Enforcement thread has closed with instructions to refer the dispute to the full arbitration committee for final decision.
- Lists of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request
- Involved AE participants
- Levivich (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (AE initiator)
- האופה (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Bluethricecreamman (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- ABHammad (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Selfstudier (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- fiveby (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- IOHANNVSVERVS (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Sean.hoyland (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Iskandar323 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Dan Murphy (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Nableezy (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- BilledMammal (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Zero0000 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Other editors whose behavior was directly mentioned in the AE thread
- PeleYoetz (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- TarnishedPath (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Nishidani (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- DMH223344 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- M.Bitton (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Referring administrators
- Red-tailed hawk (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) (referral initiator)
- ScottishFinnishRadish (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
- Barkeep49 (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
- Theleekycauldron (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
- Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
- Levivich
- האופה
- Bluethricecreamman
- ABHammad
- Selfstudier
- fiveby
- IOHANNVSVERVS
- Sean.hoyland
- Iskandar323
- Dan Murphy
- Nableezy
- BilledMammal
- Zero0000
- ScottishFinnishRadish
- Barkeep49
- Theleekycauldron
- PeleYoetz
- TarnishedPath
- Nishidani
- DMH223344
- M.Bitton
- Information about amendment request
- Pursuant to WP:CTOP#Referrals from Arbitration Enforcement noticeboard to the full Committee, a recent Arbitration Enforcement thread has closed with instructions to refer the dispute to the full arbitration committee for final decision.
- Throughout the discussion among administrators at AE, several sources of disruption were identified:
- Long-term slow-motion edit warring by a number of individuals within the Arab-Israeli conflict topic area.
- Long-term tag-team edit warring by several groups of individuals with the Arab-Israeli conflict topic area.
- The widespread nature of edit warring, battleground mentality, and POV pushing within the Arab-Israeli conflict topic area.
- The ineffectiveness of previous warnings within the topic area to stop the disruption.
- The inability of the tools available at AE to adequately handle disruption that involves a large number of parties over long periods of time.
- Several suggestions were floated by administrators during the discussion, including the issuance of warnings to multiple individuals, the imposition of 0RR restrictions on either select individuals, or 0RR restrictions on large numbers of individuals coupled with select IBANs, TBANs, individual anti-bludgeoning restrictions, and topic-wide restrictions on the length of posts people make in discussions within this topic area. However, because the discussion broadly turned into a set of complex and multi-party complaints regarding behavior of multiple editors over long periods of time, a consensus was reached among administrators to refer the broader dispute to the arbitration committee.
- — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 17:38, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Red-tailed hawk (AE referral)
Note: The arbitration amendment template limits how many individual I can initially add, so I will shortly be adding the rest of the admin and non-admin participants to the list above in their own section.
Additionally, as I can't find any prior examples of referrals by looking through the archive, I have tried to do my best here in light of the fact that this is a referral rather than a standard amendment request/appeal. Arbitrators should not hesitate to let me know if I have formatted this in an unexpected way.
— Red-tailed hawk (nest) 17:38, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Levivich: As should be more obvious now, it's everyone who contributed to the AE discussion. — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 17:48, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Levivich: There's currently a discussion over at WT:Arbitration/Requests#Template for referrals from AE around that topic. For completeness's sake, I included everyone in this one. Going forward, there might be some norm/convention, but I figured that it was better to incorporate everyone rather than potentially leave someone relevant out. — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 18:03, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- I do acknowledge that I left out several individuals whose behavior was directly mentioned, and I will fix that issue now. — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 18:07, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Zero0000: Please see my comment above, and my exchange with Levivich for an explanation as to why you are listed under the category of "Involved AE participants". — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 11:20, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Levivich: There's currently a discussion over at WT:Arbitration/Requests#Template for referrals from AE around that topic. For completeness's sake, I included everyone in this one. Going forward, there might be some norm/convention, but I figured that it was better to incorporate everyone rather than potentially leave someone relevant out. — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 18:03, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- @L235: Thank you for your comment. I think that a full case/case-like structure would be best, as that is the sort of thing that would allow for clear examination of the complex multi-party disputes that AE is not quite able to handle well. In my view, I don't think the topic-wide "please be brief in discussions" provision will be enough, as it isn't going to remedy the long-term edit warring/tag teaming, nor the civility issues that have driven away good faith editors from the topic area. In the event that a full case is opened, I agree that it is most appropriate to only have the individuals whose behavior is under examination to be considered as parties. But, before that list is finalized, we might want to have some space for the community to identify that sort of behavior—perhaps the section for statements in this thread? — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 19:01, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- I believe that it might be useful for some anti-bludgeoning sanction to incorporated into the discretionary sanctions available for administrators to dole out, but if so, I think it should look like one that the community has previously endorsed in a DS area. One such sanction is that which was imposed on NewImpartial, of
no more than two comments per discussion per day, except replies (of reasonable length) to questions or very brief clarifications of their own comments
. - I would hesitate to apply a 500 word limit in any discussion under 5000 words, and a 1000 word or 10% of the discussion limit, whichever is lower, on discussions over 5000 words topic-wide in a blanket fashion; I feel like this sort of thing would serve as a trap to good-faith newcomers who are verbose, and we needn't WP:BITE good-faith editors who are entering the topic more than already occurs. That being said, making it available as a discretionary sanction that could be applied by an admin would not cause the same issue with more or less auto-biting good-faith editors new to the area, and might be reasonable. — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 00:46, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
- I have read through the analysis by BilledMammal (talk · contribs) regarding the bludgeoning. I would point to WP:ARBBLUDGEON's
Editors should avoid repeating the same point or making so many comments that they dominate the discussion
as pointing at two things: overly repeating oneself in replies to others, and simply dominating by pure volume. The criteria used for the database search can be seen as a (flawed, but useful) proxy for the latter. The former requires contextual analysis as to whether or not someone is simply posting the same point a bazillion times in response to different people; showing diffs in the same discussion where someone is repeating the same point over and over (and over) again across a multitude of comments would provide better evidence towards that point than the analysis currently does. — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 23:03, 27 August 2024 (UTC) - @Z1720: With respect to
If the closing admin determines that the consensus is an ARCA referral or a case request, it is the closing admin's responsibility to post the request at the appropriate venue
, my reading of Wikipedia:Contentious topics#Referrals from Arbitration Enforcement noticeboard to the full Committee's relevant part (i.e. A consensus of administrators at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard may refer an arbitration enforcement request to the Arbitration Committee for final decision through a request for amendment; emphasis mine) is that I had to submit it here rather than as a case request. If this is to change going forward, the instructions should probably be tweaked to clarify this. — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 23:44, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Levivich
Looking at the list of parties, those who have been sanctioned in this topic area have not been disruptive since their sanction, AFAIK. Most of the list have never been sanctioned. If there are concerns regarding anyone's behavior in the topic area, a filing at AE, ANI, ANEW, or some other noticeboard, should happen first, before an arbcom case. An arbcom case should only happen when (1) there are editors who want to present evidence to arbcom, and (2) community options have first been tried and failed (unless there's private evidence involved). Because these criteria are not met, the case request should be declined.
Limiting everyone in the topic area to 500-1000 words is a terrible idea. This topic area has more sources (see here or here for an idea of how many academic books have been published just in the last five years), and more sources that contradict each other, than almost any other topic area. Discussions about sources can't happen in 500-1000 words; the very notion is ridiculous. More to the point, any kind of topic-wide restriction would be a horrible, counterproductive overreach. The vast, vast majority of editors are doing nothing wrong.
Removing appeals to the community is not something arbcom can do, as that would require a change to WP:BANPOL, which arbcom cannot do.
I don't think the AEs I filed are particularly "complex" or "multi-party". I think they're straightforward, and each one can be judged on its merits without considering the actions of other parties. Of the 5 I filed, 1 ended in sanctions, 2 in warnings, no problems with those. The PeleYoetz one is still open and they just made their first comment there recently. I don't see any reason admins can't review that as with any other filing. If arbs want to review that filing instead of admins, seems like overkill, but OK. האופה hasn't edited since I filed the AE 8 days ago, so while arbs could review it, I see it as moot, and I don't think reviewing it would be a good use of anyone's time at this point.
There is nothing for arbcom to do here. People who are concerned about disruption in the topic area should raise it at one of the community noticeboards. A sprawling, unfocused case with lots of parties, is a terrible idea, as has been proven multiple times by past arbcoms, and this is especially true in the absence of any showing that the community is unable to handle this. The only thing worse would be a topic-wide sanction; please don't do that, I fear it would trigger a "constitutional crisis" and waste more editor time. Levivich (talk) 14:22, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
Just a heads up: if a case is opened, I will ask arbcom to name as parties and review the conduct of all the editors, admins and non-admins alike, who, on this page, are casting WP:ASPERSIONS. Those of you who have done so may want to either strike your comments or add some diffs to support your allegations, before arbcom gets around to asking who the parties should be. Levivich (talk) 16:29, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
Re: BilledMammal's comment that 26 replies out of 59 by Levivich at Talk:Zionism#Colonial project? were to sock puppets ... The impact of sock puppets on this issue is trivial and not worth concerning ourselves with.
26 replies were to confirmed sock puppets, and I rather strongly disagree that it's trivial and not worth concerning ourselves with, though of course I value my own time more than others value my time. :-P Levivich (talk) 01:47, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
The way my report against HaOfa "sprawled" is because the first admin comment made the "other people do it, too" argument and listed a bunch of other editors, and it went downhill from there, as those editors predictably defended themselves and the discussion focused on their conduct rather than HaOfa's (despite my attempts to refocus it). I agree with TBF that an AE referral means Arbcom should review my report against HaOfa -- meaning, look at my conduct and HaOfa's conduct -- and complaints about other editors should be brought separately, with diffs not aspersions, and a showing that some other conduct dispute resolution was first tried. Because even if Arbcom does open a case, who will the parties be, and how will Arbcom decide? It requires someone presenting some evidence... in other words, an WP:ARC. Only HaOfa and I are relevant to this AE, and with HaOfa not editing since the filing, I don't think it's necessary or a good use of Arbcom's time to look at HaOfa's conduct. Levivich (talk) 01:19, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Barkeep49:
If no one else other than Levivich had replied, some quorum of admin would have been able to reach consensus on האופה. The fact that the replies that actually happened split the focus in a way that AE is ill-equipped to handle is why I ultimately (if reluctantly) agreed we should refer the case here.
I think the "first admin comment" link above disproves this. Look at who replied and who didn't before that first comment was made. It wasn'tthe replies that actually happened split the focus
, it was the first admin comment. Levivich (talk) 17:29, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
Does "pro-Israeli" mean pro-Netanyahu, or pro-the hundreds of thousands of Israelis marching in the streets protesting Netanyahu? Does "pro-Palestinian" mean pro-Fatah or pro-Hamas? And if the truth makes one side look good and the other look bad, does that mean it's "pro-" one side and "anti-" the other, or is it just the truth?
Somebody tries to get Wikipedia to say that East Jerusalem is part of Israel. That's called pro-Israeli POV-pushing. The pro-Palestinian version of that would be somebody trying to get Wikipedia to say that West Jerusalem is part of Palestine. Maybe it's happened, but I've never seen anybody try that. AFAIK, there is nobody "on the other side" of the pro-Israeli POV-pushing with regards to the status of Jerusalem. There are just the people who say it's all Israel, and the people who say, no it's split in two parts and it's supposed to be an international zone. That second group isn't "pro-Palestinian," just pro-truth.
Somebody tries to get Wikipedia to say that Palestinians are not indigenous or native to Palestine. Pro-Israeli POV-pushing. The pro-Palestinian version of that would be somebody trying to get Wikipedia to say that Jews are not indigenous or native to Israel (or Palestine, call it what you will). I've seen that, but rarely. Much more common are people saying that both groups are native to the region. Those people aren't pro-Palestinian POV-pushers, they're just pro-truth; they're normal editors following the sources.
There have been some names named on this page. I remember them participating in disputes about East Jerusalem and Palestinian origins, but I don't remember them ever trying to change an article to say that West Jerusalem was Palestinian, or Jews aren't from Israel. And I don't see any diffs of that.
So the disruption on Wikipedia is not pro-Israeli vs. pro-Palestinian; it's not that kind of simple. But it is editors who follow RS vs. a bunch of socks; it's that kind of simple. Yes, there are also good-faith content disputes, as to be expected, but the disruption--the edit warring, the source misrepresentation, the POV-pushing--that's largely from socks. And the response to those socks is not POV-pushing from the other side. Following RS is not POV pushing.
The damage caused by these socks can be significant. The latest example of obvious-sock-but-we-can't-say-it-until-we-have-a-certain-amount-of-minimum-evidence is FourPi. Look at their last 1000 contribs; they go back two weeks. Look at how much of other editor's time they wasted on talk pages. Just their last 1000 mainspace edits go back one month. Who has time to check all of those?
So when you see some people argue that East Jerusalem is in Israel and Palestinians aren't from there, and another group saying that's not true, please don't label them "pro-Israeli" and "pro-Palestinian." The most efficient way to handle it is to look at the RS, figure out which side is following the RS, and then checkuser the other side. Levivich (talk) 21:24, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
Like others, I appreciate the attempt to move this to conclusion with some motions, but I disagree with all of SFR's suggestions:
- Appeals only to arbcom - I don't see any evidence that appeals are a significant source of disruption in this topic area. Where are the links to 5-10 recent disruptive appeals? So I don't see any reason to change anything about appeals.
- Word limits - Bludgeoning can't be determined by word count or comment count, those are indicators but not determinitive; any determination requires case-by-case analysis. Also, it's a fallacy to think that long discussions are always a problem. We can't decide whether to call it "Gaza genocide" in a brief discussion. We can't analyze the number of RSes in Template:Expert opinions in the Gaza genocide debate in under 500 words per person. Limiting talk page discussions to 500 words would be very counterproductive to building an encyclopedia, in any topic area, because it would prevent people from discussing anything in any serious depth. Many of us can't even comment on this month-long ARCA in under 500 words; how would we ever decide "Gaza genocide" in under 500 words each?
- Excluding "involved" participants - "Editors designated "involved" in the area of conflict" would be everyone who edits in ARBPIA. I'm not sure of the thinking behind putting restrictions on everybody who edits ARBPIA. There certainly isn't any evidence that everybody who edits ARBPIA is editing disruptively or that excluding their voices would somehow benefit the topic area. Also, experience editing a topic area is not a bad thing. I'm having a hard time seeing the logic in replacing experienced editors with inexperienced editors and expecting that to lead to improvement.
- Enforced BRD - This is already something that can be imposed on talk pages, yet in my experience it has almost never been imposed on any talk page in ARBPIA (I can't think of a single example). We have one page that is under Consensus Required (Zionism). I don't know whether Enforced BRD or Consensus Required is better, or if either are improvements over neither, but we do not have enough data to know. Let admins apply them to pages first, and see how they work out, before we consider applying either of them to the entire topic area.
This has been open for almost a month, and yet nobody has yet posted a specific list of parties, and recent diffs of disruption by those parties, and links to prior discussions of that disruption that did not resolve it. I think instead of motions, it'd be better for arbcom to close this ARCA without any specific action now but with an invitation for editors to request arbcom's review by presenting specific evidence (at ARCA or ARC) of recent disruption that hasn't been addressed by the community. Levivich (talk) 20:07, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
- Meanwhile... here's some actual disruption in the topic area, going on right now: revert, revert, revert, revert, revert, all by accounts new to the topic area, at the same time as high-profile off-wiki commentary, e.g. X post by Brianna Wu, X post by Hen Mazzig. This is an example of why "outside voices" aren't necessarily better than the voices of experienced editors. Levivich (talk) 20:33, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
- Figureofnine's comment that there is
widespread belief, both on and off-wiki, that these articles are biased
may be true, but there is not widespread agreement on which way that bias runs. This widespread belief is not a problem that can be fixed, or that we can even try to fix. There will always be widespread belief that Wikipedia articles are biased, just like there is widespread belief that the rest of the media is biased, because it's true, because all people are biased to various degrees, it's inescapable. WP:NPOV has "neutral" in the title, but it redefines the word to mean something unique on Wikipedia. NPOV doesn't mean free of bias, it means we adopt mainstream bias. We say in wikivoice what the mainstream says, we identify dissenting views that the mainstream deems significant, and ignore the others (calling them "fringe"). We call this adoption of the mainstream bias "neutral point of view." Everyone will always disagree with some parts of it, but it'll be different parts. Sure, I also think our ARBPIA articles are riddled with bias, but not the same parts that Hen Mazzig is talking about, and Arbcom isn't going to resolve that disagreement between us. We are not here because of bias in articles, and I don't think there is any chance that we are going to stick NPOV tags on thousands of articles, nor are we going to elect a body that can come up with a way to write a bias-free summary of the most complicated and controversial geopolitical dispute in history. Let's keep our expectations reasonable: we can kick people out who are causing a lot of trouble, and maybe find ways to reduce the amount of volunteer time wasted on unnecessary writing (cough), that's what we can try to do. Levivich (talk) 05:20, 18 September 2024 (UTC)- Coretheapple's statement that
the Wikipedia community as a whole has avoided this subject area
is easily dispelled. Israel–Hamas war (created less than a year ago) has been edited by 1,288 editors and has 787 page watchers. For a comparison, Israel (created in 2001) has 5,686 editors and 2,928 watchers. 2024 Lebanon pager explosions (created one week ago) has 250 editors and 171 watchers. Those hundreds of editors are part of the Wikipedia community (as am I, as are the editors I work with every day). They have not avoided this subject area. Levivich (talk) 16:35, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
- Coretheapple's statement that
- Figureofnine's comment that there is
- More useful motions would be:
- Something to address the socking -- though I don't know what (ECR hasn't posed a problem for the topic area's dedicated LTAs)
- A source restriction like WP:APLRS, but with a carve out for current events. In recent days at Talk:Zionism, we've had editors try to cite the Bible, Wikipedia, and dictionaries, as RS. This is a too-common occurrence. Levivich (talk) 16:23, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
Statement by האופה
Statement by Bluethricecreamman
- There seems to be constant RFCs and threads about the reliability of sourcing in this area. I know the current arbitration request is about long term edit warring, but there is also long-term campaigns in talk spaces to remove usage of certain sourcing. See the downgrading of the ADL, the current RFC in WP:RSN about Al Jazeera, etc. The downgrading of the ADL, in particular, caused significant media coverage for barely much difference in the status quo of average Wikipedian (from my understanding, we already had significant warnings about using ADL with attribution only when speaking about Israel Palestine, the change in status quo hardly meant much more than a media circus). Bluethricecreamman (talk) 18:58, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- In terms of reversion, the reversion limits are harder to understand in CTOP space, especially for more contentious arguments. A clarification of what the "base" article text is and what the contentious edit that is being reverted is would be useful. In my case on Genocide of indigenous peoples, there are still questions of how to apply WP:NOCONSENSUS vs WP:ONUS when a contentious edit (which probably should be removed by WP:ONUS) had been placed in text for long while (and therefore should remain by WP:NOCONSENSUS). Bluethricecreamman (talk) 19:11, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- Additional clarification on whether coordinated tag-team editwarring (i.e. WP:CANVASSED) or incidental tag-team editwarring should be treated similarly would be useful Bluethricecreamman (talk) 19:11, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- Going off of the suggestion from ScottishFR, for the limit of 500-1000 words, some of these RFC discussions go long. Instead of absolute limits that could unfairly limit discussion among the most passionate editors of the topic, would it be possible to go with proportional limits (no more than 500 words or 10% of comments, whichever is greater?), or limits per week (500 words per week?) In addition, I have questions if such a limit would apply to single RFC threads, or to the whole topic at once. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 19:15, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- I think categorizing and various ontologies is also problematic and hard to determine, as is expected. See the issue with whether Israel is just accused of being an apartheid state, or also a Talk:Herrenvolk_democracy#Inclusion_of_Israel_in_imagebox. Allegations of just genocide or Genocide_of_indigenous_peoples. There are POV-fork type issues, but this is one of those topics where every time there is a question of how to categorize the conflict, it opens up the same exact battle lines of arguments in a million pages, even if they cover completely different aspects that may involve Israel/Palestine as one example. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 17:10, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
- TLDR; battleground fractures into dozens of talk pages that aren't necessarily pov-forks, same arguments pushed everywhere in each RFC. Better guidelines on how to be more succinct with RFCs on this topic, and how to discuss WP:ARBPIA topics on pages that aren't necessarily centered on ARBPIA would be wonderful too. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 17:13, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
- Regarding Number57's assessment,
A further issue is that for most of the last two decades the two sides have been seriously mismatched in terms of numbers and one side has been consistently able to push their POV through weight of numbers, either by long-term tag teaming or by swinging poorly-attended discussions (and in my view the 30/500 restriction has actively worsened this situation by giving the long-term problematic editors an advantage).
this seems disingenuous to suggest this, especially given the WP:NOTAVOTE rule. There are RFCs where arguments on either side are heavily favored by numbers before an admin/uninvolved closer throws away votes that have reasoning that is logically rebutted. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 19:56, 20 August 2024 (UTC)- I will also say the 30/500 restriction as a "worsening" of situation seems silly. I am not quite sure about the logical reasoning behind that assertion, though some other biased publications have attempted to use that to suggest that wikipedia "censors" certain viewpoints? [17][18][19] Bluethricecreamman (talk) 20:07, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
- It sounds like a few of folks are leaning towards massive topic bans against all participants... Regardless of how unlikely such a proposal is, I hate the idea of "cleaning the slate" and such a broad strokes approach is likely to cause more problems than it would theoretically solve:
- * There is benefits to having folks with bias on here, especially the most heaviest editors, doing major work. Bias is inherent to humanity and pretending otherwise is just an excuse to press the red ban button without considering consequences (or especially because they hate the current bias of Wikipedia compared to their preferred bias). The way to deal with bias is using the principles we have, rules we can apply even handedly, WP:WIKIVOICE to correctly attribute which side says what, etc.
- Many topic areas have specialized folks who do important work (see Pareto rule). Seeing a list of highly motivated folks in this topic area is not a sign necessarily they are always hogging the attention, so much as they provide much of the energy to keep Wikipedia up to doate.
- The precedent of massive topic bans without careful assessment of the reasoning why leads to dangerous precedents for other future content disputes.
- The precedent of retroactive punishments for areas of conflict is a dangerous precedent
- I am not sure the same cabal of pro-Palestine/pro-Israeli editors is necessarily "crowding" out other editors? There are folks who loudly complain about exiting ARBPIA areas, especially on this section, but that isn't quite the same as actual stats to back that up. I'm actually fairly new-ish to this topic area, and admins have been kind enough to help shepherd, provide useful guidance, and prevent my early exit (voluntary or involuntary).
- * There is benefits to having folks with bias on here, especially the most heaviest editors, doing major work. Bias is inherent to humanity and pretending otherwise is just an excuse to press the red ban button without considering consequences (or especially because they hate the current bias of Wikipedia compared to their preferred bias). The way to deal with bias is using the principles we have, rules we can apply even handedly, WP:WIKIVOICE to correctly attribute which side says what, etc.
- I think pressing a mass TBAN on this topic area would be somewhat equivalent to doing WP:TNT on large sections of the editor community who specialize on here... Unless it is certain that all of the project is absolutely unsalvageable or ARBIPA is somehow all a failure, I ask arbitrators to avoid granting such a power. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 23:11, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Sean.hoyland thanks for the numbers, they are really informative! I will say, it is fairly obvious a giant influx of editors to the topic area happened recently as a result of the conflict (myself included), though obviously the analysis of such a large dataset to confirm or deny toxicity by a core group would go beyond just numbers. I think the pure mass of folks in the topic area is just a lot harder to govern around and regulate, especially with the contentiousness of the topic area. And as the conflict spreads beyond obviously ARBPIA pages to tangentially related pages, the regulations get murkier. I think if PIA5 does happen, a key issue is just how to govern and regulate en masse, as well as on the individual editor/cabal level, and how to handle PIA content on pages that aren't just pure PIA (see the Herrenvolk_democracy talk page RFC for an example)? Bluethricecreamman (talk) 16:53, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- Comment on Motion 3. All areas of Wikipedia has "regulars" and regulars generally provide the most institutional wisdom to the project, rejection of "regulars" ability to vote would likely represent a repudiation of the current coverage of the conflict in favor of the implicit view by some that "secret majorities" have overrun the CTOP areas. For Motion 4, what would be defined as recent? editwars may take the form of months long warring, in which case which edit is a revert, and which is disputed becomes contested as well Bluethricecreamman (talk)
- * regarding the "secret majority" theory proposed by some, I argue that folks use the idea that CTOP contentiousness is driven by a small group of editors to pursue a "burn the house down" strategy of removing/wounding an editor population they perceive to be ideologically biased in one direction. Sean.Hoyland has already produced statistics indicating that editor counts are diverse and that the area is contentious primarily because the topic is contentious. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 21:45, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
Statement by ABHammad
I think we have arrived at a point where editing in this area is not just a battleground environment but an ex-territory of the project. I recognize that I, too, took part in this in the past, not out of desire but because I felt I had no choice when I saw the consistent POV pushing and disregard for policies and consensus. There’s probably a reason why Wikipedia is now maybe the only mainstream source to use terms such as Gaza genocide and Israeli apartheid (read the lead) with its own voice. Many disputed changes like this have been introduced through edit warring (check Zionism, now defined as looking for the “colonization of land outside Europe”), in spite of substantial opposition. The current situation both scares away potential great editors and destroys our credibility and neutrality.
The feeling is that a bunch of 5-10 experienced editors have taken dominance over the area. Much of their edit histories show a focus on promoting one side's POV and discarding the other. Although some problematic editing occurs on both sides, it should be noted that the extent of POV editing on articles about one side is only a fraction of what occurs on articles about the other. This situation is perpetuated as new good-faith editors trying to balance the content often face aggressive behavior such as strong CTOP messages from Selfstudier followed by inquiries how did they find this and that article, "previous accounts" questions from Nableezy, accusations of "gaming the system to achieve EC status" from Iskandar323 on noticeboards, and as we seen in the last month, unverified tag-teaming allegations from Levivich. Those who survive all of the above then find their user talk pages filled with allegations, insults and other kinds of personal attacks and aspersions. Even five edits in this topic area can provoke such reactions. WP:ONUS and WP:CONSENSUS are ignored - they are applied only to others. RfCs, AfDs, and RMs are manipulated through mass bludgeoning. They blame others for edit warring - but this is exactly what they are doing. Based on my experience with these editors over several months, I am afraid it would be naive to think that simply limiting word count in discussions would solve the problem. Looking over their logs, many of these editors already have a long history of warnings and short-term topic bans, so something else must be done this time. ABHammad (talk) 09:49, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
- Much of what I was discussing is unfolding as we speak. Take a look at this discussion in an article recently created by an EC editor who appears to be an expert in security studies. Iskandar323 opens a technical move without any prior discussion [20], Selfstudier casts aspersions on other editors who joined the discussion and disagreed with them [21], Nableezy asks the opening editor on their page if it's their first account [22], and Sean Hoyland accused the creator of being a sock [23], just two days after blaming another editor for being a sock solely based on some shared topics of interest with a blocked editor who had 72,000(!) edits [24]. I can only guess how this editor feels right now and how long they will stay with us. ABHammad (talk) 08:43, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Selfstudier
1.There is another relevant recent related AE thread
, Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive336#Nishidani. Many of the editors here, including myself and several of the uninvolved administrators, were participants and the case revolved around behavior (and content) at the Zionism article and this same subject matter is a part of the current case, 6 Levivich diffs refer (in the last two statements).Selfstudier (talk) 22:55, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
2.This one as well (PeleYoetz). Editors named here continue to respond there. Although procedurally a separate AE case, it was filed contemporaneously with and is part and parcel of the related AE thread
. Selfstudier (talk) 12:59, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
3.In the interim, avoiding this sort of thing or this would be as well. Selfstudier (talk) 22:14, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
4.Several editors suggest that editors are scared off by a toxic environment. this example for the Zionism article (Sean.hoyland), shows the contrary, an influx of new editors in recent times. Difficult to be certain without more data but my sense is that the pattern will hold up for other articles as well. It is of course possible that both things are true. Selfstudier (talk) 09:34, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Theleekycauldron:
it'd be ludicrous to say that the temperature in this area is lower than it was the day before the war began.
I'm not saying that, I'm saying that there has been an influx of new editors regardless of the temperature.Selfstudier (talk) 10:11, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
5.@Nishidani: Where is the empirical evidence for these outrageous spluttering caricatures of a very complex environment
+1, I would indeed like to see the data. Selfstudier (talk) 10:24, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
6: Apart from myself, and given the number of times they are mentioned, I think we should specify just which editors are the regulars
. Just so we know. Selfstudier (talk) 17:41, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
7: @Barkeep49: The difficulty is that following "referral", based on a case that was not even resolved, 4 editors were designated for investigation with no apparent basis or other case specified as reasons for such an investigation. If no-one else had replied in the referred case, none of us would be here right now, suggesting that the only basis for said designation is the content of the replies (of editors and admins) in said case, which lacks a certain logic afaics. Which is not to say definitively that there should not be a case, just that it should have proper antecedents and not merely come about ad hoc.Selfstudier (talk) 17:04, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
8: Re BM's "evidence", the same case Nableezy refers to, BM characterizes my position as not expressing a stance on the use of the term massacre when I !voted against it! -> Oppose Incident is a euphemistic whitewash for what occurred. Would support 2008 killings in Bureij or similar
Selfstudier (talk) 12:45, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
- Then the next two on the list are RM's that I proposed and the result accorded with what I proposed. I will waste no more time with this, if anyone would like to accuse me of POV pushing based on such evidence, feel free to do so. Selfstudier (talk) 14:32, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
9: If someone insists, rather simplistically imo, on labeling myself, then a more appropriate label from my own perspective would be pro human rights/International law and the alleged pro-Palestinianism derives from my belief that the hr/il rights of Palestinians are breached far more frequently than those of Israelis, in particular Jewish Israelis. And guess what, I can source that, with ease. Selfstudier (talk) 16:53, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
10: Enforced BRD or WP:CRP is useful and one such is currently operating to good effect at Zionism; for bludgeoning, I would suggest instead a rule that direct replies to !votes be disallowed, indirect replies and responses only in own sections as at AE. As for exclusion from !voting, I would go along with this provided that every editor that had made even one edit to an AI/IP article was similarly excluded (I assume that such excluded editors would still be permitted to open formal discussions? eg opening an RM is usually considered equivalent to a bolded !vote.) Selfstudier (talk) 14:22, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
Statement by fiveby
I don't think the referral of this particular case and the inclusion of the first two items listed as identified disruption dealing with edit warring necessarily means that AE can't deal with such or didn't in this instance. Just because the experiment blew up the lab does not mean it was a bad thing to try. Seemed like a reasonable request and a result of you need more evidence to demonstrate tag team editing seems reasonable, which everyone could have and maybe should have accepted and walked away from. fiveby(zero) 17:05, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
- HJ Mitchell, these knowledgeable Wikipedians, who exactly are they? If you are thinking of those often claiming some greater knowledge or ability in this topic area, then oh boy do you have it wrong. Here is some "source misrepresentation", blatant and obvious. If members of the committee can't see it happening now and do something about it then they are the last people who should feel qualified to perform some kind of grand "source analysis" for the topic area. fiveby(zero) 21:26, 1 September 2024 (UTC)
Statement by IOHANNVSVERVS
Statement by Sean.hoyland
I tend to agree with Ravpapa's assessment that we have probably "exceeded the limits of the possible with a cooperative open editing model, and we need to think of some other way to approach articles in this area". I have no idea what that would look like.
I would like to know the answer to the following question
- Why would a person on a righteous mission hand over control of which rules they have to follow to people hostile to their cause when they can simply use disposable accounts and pick and choose which rules to follow without having to concern themselves with the consequences of non-compliance?
Answers like "It's against the rules", "It's dishonest", "It's hypocritical", "They will be discovered and blocked" are wrong answers. Sean.hoyland (talk) 15:18, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
Regarding a perceived "established/multi-topic interested Wikipedian" vs "less-established more and/or more singularly focused Wikipedian" divide, I'm not sure this tells you anything very useful. There is already training material teaching people how to resemble a multi-topic interested Wikipedian. This is good advice because there is utility in diluting POV edits, edit war participation etc. A few strategic edit warring edits in a sea of multi-topic edits will likely be treated differently than a few strategic edit warring edits by an account that resembles an SPA, even though they are the same. It may also devalue article intersection evidence between accounts and reduce the chance of a checkuser being approved. Sean.hoyland (talk) 18:10, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
A plea for humility
This is for all the people making sweeping statements.
- It might be better to assign low credence, by default, to the accuracy of assessments of the state of the 'topic area', a complex system with thousands of moving parts.
- This is a small part of the structure you are talking about. What is the likelihood that sweeping statements are accurate?
- Here are some numbers and some questions.
- I don't know what the 'topic area' is exactly, but thousands of article talk pages have one of the various topic area related templates informing people about the special rules. So, we can look at those and pretend it's the 'topic area' or thereabouts.
- This table lists the number of different editors and the number of revisions for talk pages in this 'topic area' for the last ten years or so. The number of revisions provides an upper limit on the number of editor interactions on talk pages. Obviously, the actual number of interactions will be much less, but at least there are some numbers rather than stories and feelings.
- Questions:
- How many of these talk page interactions are consistent with the sweeping negative assessments of the state of the topic area and how many are not?
- How many comply with policy and guidelines and how many do not?
- How many are hostile, toxic, combative, tendentiousness, condescending, bludgeoning, hypocritical, bullying, glaringly dishonest etc. and how many are not?
year | actor_count | talk_revisions | |
---|---|---|---|
0 | 2013 | 2096 | 17754 |
1 | 2014 | 2483 | 23773 |
2 | 2015 | 2167 | 23195 |
3 | 2016 | 1848 | 18541 |
4 | 2017 | 2091 | 21463 |
5 | 2018 | 2184 | 23643 |
6 | 2019 | 1907 | 15812 |
7 | 2020 | 2110 | 14908 |
8 | 2021 | 2755 | 21711 |
9 | 2022 | 2464 | 19716 |
10 | 2023 | 6778 | 52636 |
11 | 2024 | 6287 | 59678 |
Sean.hoyland (talk) 16:02, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
Being realistic/know your limits
It's quite difficult to reconcile calls to topic ban long term experienced users with things we know about the topic area. We know quite a lot. For example, we know the following things.
- It isn't possible to topic ban or block a person and prevent them from editing in the topic area. Why? Because it isn't possible to enforce the WP:SOCK policy in PIA. It's largely unenforceable for a variety of practical, wiki-cultural and technical reasons. We all know this. There have always been plenty of accounts evading topic bans and blocks in PIA and there is apparently very little that can be done about it. They are part of the community of editors in PIA, like it or not.
- Topic bans don't solve problems. They split the PIA community into 2 classes, editors who comply with WP:SOCK and editors who do not and therefore cannot be sanctioned effectively. Maybe a currently topic banned user in this discussion could talk openly about this reality. Their input could be very valuable.
- If every editor currently active in the topic area were topic banned today, the topic area would be rapidly recolonized, probably within a matter of days or weeks. The pioneers would be more likely to come from subpopulations that do not think the prohibition against "systematically manipulating content to favour specific interpretations of facts or points of view" applies to them. We know this because we have lots of data about how new highly motivated biased editors cross (or tunnel through) the EC barrier and what they do when they get into the topic area.
Sean.hoyland (talk) 04:35, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
The Kip, regarding socks,
- Unfortunately, I think the statement "it's a problem that can be dealt with somewhat easily via SPI" (my bolding) is just not true. That's what the data shows, and we have a lot of data, at least for people who advocate for Israel, less so for people who advocate for Palestine (although they are also present). If you ask questions like...
- "How many sock accounts are currently active in the topic area, or outside the area (to gain EC or access to wiki-mail for canvassing)"
- "How has the number of sock accounts varied over time?"
- "How many revisions to articles, talk pages, RfCs, RSN etc. are by sock accounts?"
...what are the answers? Nobody knows, but we know from the data that they are a constant presence, make thousands of edits, participate in many discussions and have a significant impact on the dynamics of the topic area (including the things often referred to as 'heat' and 'temperature' - slightly misleading terms because those are measurable quantities in the real world that are unreliable subjective guesses here).
I think there's a bit of a failure to factor in the significance of socks. The existence of an effectively unsanctionable class changes many things in important ways (this is true in other systems too). There are asymmetries in the payoffs and penalties for socks vs non-socks in the wiki-game. There are asymmetries in the costs of preparing and processing an SPI report vs creating a disposable account, which is a virtually frictionless process. These asymmetries, and there are many, seem to be very significant features of the topic area. Using disposable accounts appears to be a better strategy for the righteous advocate and it's not obvious how to change that.
Certainly, it's a problem that could be dealt with somewhat easily via SPI, but that would probably require significant changes to current norms about checkuser usage and evidence. What I would like to see, just out of interest, are experiments e.g. split the topic area up into article subsets, have different rule sets for the subsets, see what happens. Have a closely guarded set of articles with all of the existing rules, any new remedies, any new entry barriers, checkusers for every editor active there etc., the strictest possible enforcement environment. Have another set that could be a land for the oppressed and mistreated ban evading victims of WP:SOCK, for the disposable account fan, for people to edit war and advocate to their hearts content and stick a disclaimer on the articles for readers. Things like that would be interesting and possibly informative.
Are statements of the form "it's toxic disaster zone" true statements or just stories? It's not what I observe. It seems to have improved in some ways. What I have observed over time is what seems to be a gradual transition from things like edit warring as a solution, to talking and the use of tools like RFCs etc. But the topic area is so large and complex with so many individual actors, and so many events, that it is difficult to make reliable general statements about it. Sean.hoyland (talk) 02:27, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
Meme check #1 TLDR -> some data.
How true are statements about editors being scared away from the topic area by a toxic environment created by entrenched editors etc.?
It's true that there are instances that can be selected out of the large number of comments on talk pages and elsewhere to tell this story. Sometimes they will be sincere statements and other times they will be insincere manipulative statements by ban evading socks playing the victim in the hopes of getting perceived opponents blocked.
One way to see whether editors being scared away could be to
- Look for changes in the number of unique editors in the topic area over time
- Compare the topic area to the rest of Wikipedia
If the claim is true, you might expect to see a couple of things
- The number of unique editors reducing over time
- A proportionally lower number of unique editors in the topic area than in Wikipedia in general.
I've tried to have a look at this using 3 datasets, two approximations of the 'topic area' and a set of randomly selected Wikipedia articles.
- PIA topic area - template presence (3734 articles). Articles with one of the ARBPIA/contentious topics templates on their talk pages.
- PIA topic area - project membership (3019 articles). Articles that are members of both Wikiproject Israel and Palestine. This is the approach BilledMammal uses, so thanks for that. Neither of these methods capture every article that a person would say is in the topic area, they are both different subsets of a larger set, but it's a start.
- Random sample (15000 articles).
- The top plot shows the unique editor count over time for the 3 datasets.
- The bottom plot shows the same results scaled by article count. This result might suggest that the topic area is more attractive to editors than Wikipedia in general. Didn't really expect that.
Sean.hoyland (talk) 15:21, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
Zero0000, removing topic area articles created from Oct 7, 2023 onwards doesn't seem to make much difference. I guess many editors might be flowing upstream from the new post-Oct 7 extensions to the topic area to update pre-Oct 7 articles. Sean.hoyland (talk) 08:29, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
Meme check #2 TLDR -> more data
Many opinions about the topic area talk of a set of editors ('experienced editors', 'the regulars', 'battleground editors', 'the culprits', 'entrenched editors' etc.) who have worked together to some effect.
Can we see this effect?
- One place to look might be in the relationship between account age and revisions to see who's doing the editing.
- Is it mostly these older accounts, or newer accounts, or something more complicated?
- Is some kind of evidence of article ownership visible?
I've tried to look at this by...
- Selecting 35 fairly prominent articles
- Producing histograms showing the number of revisions vs account age in days at the time the edit was made for each article and talk page.
- To keep things visually simple the bin size for account age is 365 days.
- 25th, 50th and 75th percentiles are marked along with the average account age.
Here are the results. The distributions vary but younger accounts appear to dominate in the topic area in terms of revision counts, at least based on this small sample. It would be interesting to see what this distribution looks like for the entire topic area. Sean.hoyland (talk) 15:30, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
Using evidence-based approaches
I would like to commend BilledMammal for their evidence-based approach. This way, people can discuss methodology and evidence rather than assert things about the state of PIA. Now, I was a bit disappointed to only score 89% for the percentage edits in the topic area because it is supposed to 100%, or thereabouts as it says on my user page, so I'm not sure where I'm going wrong. But regarding methodology, the including "all editors with more than 500 edits since 2022 who have made 50%+ of their edits in the ARBPIA topic area" will inevitably miss a lot. Perhaps it is unavoidable to some extent. It misses the contributions of AndresHerutJaim's socks for example (the cause of a previous ArbCom case about canvassing). By my count, their socks made 1927 revisions spread over 159 accounts since 2022 to articles and talk pages within the topic area (using the same definition of the topic area as BilledMammal). If you choose revisions since 2020 it's 3703, and since 2018 it's 6504, and I'm not sure any of the accounts would cross the 50% in topic area threshold. And that's just the identified accounts for one sock edit source. We have no idea what the success rate is for sock identification. And somewhat dishearteningly I can see several more (what I regard as) possible socks in the activity statistics. Sean.hoyland (talk) 18:43, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
PIA dynamics
If there is a case, I think one of the things it could try to address is the following (often cyclical) property of the system, which appears to be quite common as far as I can tell.
- Step 1 - Biased extendedconfirmed editor A makes a sequence of edits (that may or may not be noticed and result in people having to spend time creating and processing an AE case)
- Step 2 - Biased non-extendedconfirmed probable-sock B uses this to justify creating a disposable account, violating WP:SOCK and WP:ARBECR, to revert the edits.
An obvious sledgehammer partial solution to Step 2 is to just EC protect every article in the PIA topic area to disincentivize disposable non-EC account creation, but Step 1 should not happen in the first place and is clearly much harder to address.
I'll also add that in my view, a case that only includes parties who do not employ deception, who are not evading topic bans/blocks etc., is about as likely to succeed in producing good results as a study that only includes data from participants who are easy to access, while ignoring an important subpopulation that is harder to reach. Sean.hoyland (talk) 02:40, 1 September 2024 (UTC)
Replicators (socks) - the gift that keeps giving
Again, hats off to BilledMammal for bring the receipts. Little time to look in detail right now and probably plenty to think about. But one quick comment on 'it demonstrates that the issue of sockpuppets is less significant than we believe.' The amount of sock activity is a difficult thing to image and quantify, a bit like corruption, black markets, Advanced Persistent Threat group activity, but we can see some features.
- If we just look at 2022 to present, obviously limited to only talking about logged blocked socks that made edits in PIA (with the caveat that we can't know the sock discover rate), we can see the following
- There were a lot.
- They made a lot of edits.
- The average 'SPA-ness' is low (percentage of edits in PIA articles, talk, templates, categories, portal and draft namespaces). They do not generally resemble SPAs.
- Note: this statement of mine "obviously limited to only talking about logged blocked socks" is not really true. There is also the network of sock related categories that might contain accounts assigned to sockmasters that do not have log entries that I would capture or log entries at all. The labelling of socks is a bit spotty turning it into a bit of a treasure hunt. But I was too lazy to look. Sean.hoyland (talk) 10:48, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
And as tempted as I am to name names because I think AGF is counterproductive in PIA when dealing with replicating threat actors, I will just say that I can still see many accounts in the stats that I regard (based on technical data) as probable socks. Maybe someone will file SPIs at some point, but it is unlikely to be me because the cost/benefit makes it too expensive. Sean.hoyland (talk) 08:41, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
Here's an idea for a fun project for someone to make something potentially pretty. Build a directed graph of the sock-related part of the ludicrously large Wikipedia category graph and color code the nodes and/or edges for actors that have made PIA revisions (and/or other contentious areas) based on something, revision count, rev date, SPA-ness etc. I imagine the PIA related part of the sock graph would be quite small. Sean.hoyland (talk) 11:40, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
Labels Regarding labelling editors pro-this or pro-that, this is a useful shorthand for casual discussion, but for analysis labelling should really be deterministic/repeatable/based on a decision procedure etc. Also, if I had to apply a label to myself it would be pro-Wikipedia (or maybe pro-human...that might be a stretch thinking about it). I think for many people it seems to be quite easy to mis-categorize pro-Wikipedia as pro-Palestinian. Perhaps this follows naturally from the claim that the media, organizations, governments, academia (everyone?) etc. is biased against Israel, so following sources will make you look biased against Israel. It's all a bit self-referential. Sean.hoyland (talk) 15:36, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
BilledMammel, that table is interesting, but my challenge would be - what is the utility of an unfalsifiable label? Also, if I made that I would have pretty low credence in the labels because I don't know how to write an algorithm to reliably tell the difference between "a pro-Palestine point of view"/"a pro-Israel point of view" and a policy compliant source-based view. This is the tricky thing for me. There's the personal bias, plus a person's source sampling bias that limits what they can see, plus their personal interpretation of policies like due weight, plus what they personally identify as bias etc. and you can't just do a Fourier transform to decompose them. Sticking a label on editors strikes me as an understandable attempt to impose order on something more complex and chaotic. Sean.hoyland (talk) 16:21, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
Once discovered, a sockpuppet account is automatically blocked. - Thebiguglyalien
This statement is false.
- It is the kind of error that contributes to the long-term inability to resolve the issues in the topic area.
- If you can't sanction or block a person, you can't solve problems. It's like sending the dishonest people to prisons without gates, then blaming the honest people who haven't been sent to prison for the crime rate.
- Being "discovered" is not the same as being reported e.g.
- Exhibit A
- Exhibit B, User:O.maximov was "discovered" as a sock months ago.
- Exhibit C, User:FourPi was also "discovered" as a sock months ago.
- And being reported is not the same as being blocked. There are many "discovered" sockpuppets operating in the topic area right now. Many people in the topic area can "see" the socks like bright objects. They are part of the community of editors, they are major contributors, they have an important effect on the dynamics of the topic area, and most importantly they divide the community into sanctionable and unsanctionable classes. And remember, sockpuppets are not just accounts that makes hundreds edits from a single account and stick around, although there are plenty of those. The majority of sockpuppets make tens of edits in PIA and are gone. Most are probably not "discovered" or blocked at all. The vast majority of articles in the topic area are not EC protected so there is no barrier in place, just the vigilance of editors who spot and revert EC violations. Then, of course, that topic area monitoring and revert work will be counted as part of estimates of how much someone resembles an SPA, which is pretty funny. Sean.hoyland (talk) 03:00, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
Regarding Zero0000's A proper analysis would need to compare reliable sources against !voting patterns.
...absolutely. I would go as far as to say the entire pro-Israel vs pro-Palestine model is very likely to be the wrong model. It's a trap, sometimes used intentionally, sometimes used unintentionally, something that traps people into ways of thinking about solutions that cannot possibly produce effective solutions. Better models could be honest vs dishonest, Wikipedia rules > personal preferences vs Wikipedia rules < personal preferences. There are probably lots of better models. The objective function for PIA is poorly defined. If it is something like to maximize policy compliance and minimize disruption, how can we ever hope to achieve that if we can't even prevent a person from editing in the topic area. Does anyone believe blocking the O.maximov and FourPi sock accounts will change anything when they probably already have alternative disposable accounts. Nothing can be done about personal bias. But plenty can be done about reducing dishonesty in the topic area. Sean.hoyland (talk) 04:56, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
Zero0000, regarding The top 20 contributors made 23% of the edits.
, the 100 revision (in namespaces 0,1) cut off makes these results a particular way of looking at the topic area. Without the limit, the topic area looks a bit different. For example, from 2022-01-01 to the present there were 44739 distinct actors (excluding bots) that made at least 1 edit to a topic area article or talk page. 'Actor' rather than 'user' because that includes 23124 distinct unregistered IPs. And the total number of revisions to those 2 namespaces was 473212 in that period, which is considerably more than the sum of the PIA column in the stats. So, for me, this way of looking at events in the topic area with an edit count cutoff and a notion of dominant contributors presupposes things about the actual nature of the topic area. It divides contributions up in way that is great for pointing fingers in a partisan information war but may not reflect reality very well. From a single account 'contributor' perspective it seems to be the contributors with low edit counts that may have the largest impact on topic area (although it is impossible to really tell). I'll make some plots for the entire topic area over various periods to show who is doing the editing (in terms of account age) when I get a chance. Sean.hoyland (talk) 13:11, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
Zero0000, I'm just counting revisions and excluding bots so it shouldn't change the top 20 counts. Or maybe I would get slightly different counts. I haven't actually checked. Should probably do that but I can't imagine it would be significantly different as we are doing roughly the same thing. What would be nice would be to see how many reverts are spent on enforcing ARBECR, but there is a lot of diversity in people's edit summaries making it tricky. Sean.hoyland (talk) 14:43, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
I don't think "restore faith in the project that many do not have, or have lost" is a valid objective. Policy compliance has no dependency at all on the amount of faith people out in the world have in it. The fact that there are plenty of easily manipulated people out there who can be persuaded to believe something shouldn't have any impact on content decisions in my view. There are rules, we should just follow the rules, and people who don't like the result are free to whine about it and monetize the attention they receive. Sean.hoyland (talk) 04:34, 18 September 2024 (UTC)
Ban evasion
In terms of motions, can anyone think of any simple practical measures that might reduce the impact of ban evasion on the topic area? Unfortunately, it seems that ban evading users tend to be sampled from the ends of the bias spectrum and some have a tendency to start fires. It could be argued that this entire discussion was triggered (at least in part) by ban evasion, so it seems appropriate to try to address it.
It's obviously not possible to know how many edits are made by ban evading actors, but it is possible to quantify ban and block evading revisions in the PIA topic area (or rather an approximation of the topic area - templated pages and pages in both Wikiprojects Israel and Palestine).
- by actors with block logs containing 'checkuser', 'sock', 'multiple accounts', 'evasion' or 'proxy'
- and/or by actors in 'Wikipedia sockpuppets of' categories
I don't have any ideas other than perhaps lowering the barrier for checkuser tool usage in PIA to a set of simple triggers like edit warring, receiving a block, ban evasion-like behavior (e.g. mismatch between edit count and experience), anything that could be considered "disruptive editing", the phrase used in the checkuser policy. Sean.hoyland (talk) 18:29, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
Barkeep49, thank you for the response. I understand. I sometimes wonder whether WMF would benefit from adopting some kind of 'commitment to authenticity' that you see in some social media companies that have to deal with similar ban evasion/inauthentic actor issues. Now that Wikipedia has matured into one of the most-visited websites, plays an important role in large-language model training and will probably become even more significant with models using Wikipedia/Wikidata etc. as knowledge bases to ground their responses, a system that doesn't do very well at preventing people willing to use deception from generating content and participating in consensus forming processes seems a bit problematic. Sean.hoyland (talk) 16:15, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
Coretheapple, regarding "the Wikipedia community as a whole has avoided this subject area". I also thought this was probably the case, but the data appears to indicate that it is not the case. The chart in section 'Meme check #1' above appears to show that the topic area is more attractive to editors than Wikipedia in general, at least based on a comparison of the topic area and 15,000 random selected articles. Sean.hoyland (talk) 16:44, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
Yearly and monthly revision counts by all actors in the PIA topic area over time
See plot (requested by Levivich). Sean.hoyland (talk) 17:01, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Iskandar323
Statement by Dan Murphy
The "dispute" as defined here is "accounts on Wikipedia disagree about various things." In my case I have recently disagreed with a number of accounts about the history of Zionism. On the one hand, early zionists and historians of zionism describe it as a colonial project of settlement. On the other hand, some wikipedia accounts really don't want the article here to describe it as such. Many of those accounts have turned out to be sockpuppets of previous accounts long banned from this area. I'd be shocked if the Peleyoetz account named in this report isn't one, too [25]. The abuse of sockpuppets is a powerful advantage at Wikipedia, and wooden enforcement of teh rulz about conduct, ignorant of content and context, a powerful disincentive to being honest and straightforward.
No matter. This unfocused, throw everything at the wall and see what sticks request, is a bad idea.Dan Murphy (talk) 13:06, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Nableezy
This discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
My view is that if this is to be an arbitration case that it should be pretty wide, and not just the four editors Barkeep named. The tendentious editing, including obvious examples of canvassing and off-wiki coordination, in this topic area stretches well beyond those four names, and I don’t think looking at four editors in a vacuum in this, or any other topic where the temperature in the real world is beyond mildly warm, is all that productive. I’m well aware of the committees past rulings on standards of behavior, but I for one am unable to understand how anybody can think a topic like this, where the real world conflict it is covering contains accusations of ongoing crimes against humanity up to and including rape as a weapon of war, mass indiscriminate killings, and genocide is going to remain calm cool and collected. nableezy - 01:51, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
This page is considerably more "toxic" than nearly any talk page in this topic area. Any number of people are making winking references to editors and claiming some misbehavior with absolutely zero evidence besides their vibes. Not to mention the way over the top comments by one admin. I cant say I would be looking forward to a case, as to be blunt with you all ArbCom historically has focused on the surface issues of these topics and not the actual root causes, but either open a case or dont. That or aggressively clerk some of these statements. That is if we want "decorum" to apply here too. nableezy - 17:48, 23 August 2024 (UTC) I am largely in agreement with ToBeFree here. If this is a referral of the AE thread then the committee should rule on that AE thread if that seems worthwhile. If a full case is warranted then it should be at WP:ARC, where somebody like me can present evidence on tendentious and disruptive editing in this topic area outside of the AE request being referred here. The person who was brought to AE has not made a single response to any of this, but somehow we have a number of users rising up to demand topic bans be given out like candy on Halloween. I think there are any number of things that the committee can do in this topic area, hell should do in this topic area. I dont really see how many of them are at all related to what was referred to them here. nableezy - 14:32, 29 August 2024 (UTC) Again, BilledMammals "evidence" is dishonest. He claims I supported massacre here because I opposed "incident" as euphemistic for the murder of 7 civilians, including 6 children. When I said I’m not jumping to anything, you have repeatedly misrepresented others views, you have repeatedly portrayed one discussion that was focused on one topic to support positions on unrelated topics they did not focus on. You did the same exact thing at AE, where you claimed that Iskandar323 supported the use of massacre where all he opposed was your attempt at obfuscating that it was a school that was attacked. You do this constantly, you choose to portray comments in whatever light that makes it appear that your argument is intellectually consistent and honest when it is invariably not. I’ll be happy to substantiate that further if this gets to an evidence phase, but my point here was that arbs should not treat your evidence as anything other than a partisan and dishonest portrayal of what happened. nableezy - 14:25, 2 September 2024 (UTC) |
I dont see why AE appeals should be at the discretion of the imposing admin be only heard by the committee. AE actions are already superblocks, removing two of the places they can be heard turns them closer to super duper blocks. The threshhold to overturn an AE action is already pretty high, and I cannot really understand why anybody thinks they should be even higher. Enforcd BRD is basically making what a skilled obstructionist can turn into a glacial place into an ice age. How would consensus be determined? Do only discussions with uninvolved admins closing get resolved? Things that would actually help? A quicker trigger finger on talk page bans for foruming. Same for pushing unsourced views. The anti-bludgeoning one is good in theory, maybe good in practice maybe not. Can find out I guess. But the enforced BRD one I think is accepting that anybody who can wikilawyer well enough will be able to freeze an article; Oh its a V failure ... Oh, I see the source, well VNOT, and it is not DUE ... Well I see it's widely cited but it still is not NPOV ... No, I dont have any sources showing that its views are challenged, I think you should first demonstrate that all sources agree with this POV ... Well I disagree, and ONUS requires consensus and because I disagree there is no consensus. And repeat. nableezy - 21:40, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
Statement by BilledMammal
There are a significant number of issues in this topic area that it is likely only ARBCOM can address, including:
- POV pushing
- Including both editors switching their stance to conform to their POV (for example, supporting using massacre as a descriptive term only when Israelis were targeted, or only when Palestinians were targeted) and editors misrepresenting sources.
- Stealth canvassing
- Incivility
- Occasional lapses are forgivable, but it has become common for editors to ignore the fourth pillar. This drives editors away from the topic area, worsening issues with POV pushing and stealth canvassing.
- The only way the topic area can be fixed is by fixing this.
- Bludgeoning
- See ARBPIA discussion statistics for an assessment of the extent of the problem. For technical reasons, it is currently limited to discussions on article talk pages and at RSN.
- In response to the comment by SashiRolls, only three listings (out of 109) were significantly impacted by sock puppets:
- 26 replies out of 59 by Levivich at Talk:Zionism#Colonial project? were to sock puppets
- 15 replies out of 45 by Selfstudier at Talk:Zionism#Colonial project? were to sock puppets
- 12 replies out of 34 by Selfstudier at Talk:2024 Nuseirat rescue operation#Requested move 9 June 2024 were to sock puppets
- The impact of sock puppets on this issue is trivial and not worth concerning ourselves with. Added 01:28, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
- In response to the comment by SashiRolls, only three listings (out of 109) were significantly impacted by sock puppets:
- See ARBPIA discussion statistics for an assessment of the extent of the problem. For technical reasons, it is currently limited to discussions on article talk pages and at RSN.
BilledMammal (talk) 09:41, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
- Regarding ScottishFinnishRadish's word limit proposal, I don't think that will have the desired result. Editors are often required to review a wide array of sources, such as when attempting to determining if a viewpoint is in the majority or what the WP:COMMONNAME is, and a word limit will impede this. This will in turn worsen one of the other issues in the topic area, POV pushing.
- Instead, I think a comment limit - perhaps ten comments per discussion - will be more effective at preventing the back-and-forth and repetition of points that causes discussions to expand unproductively. BilledMammal (talk) 13:12, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Nableezy: My aim was to review a representative sample of discussions in the topic space, rather than providing a sample biased towards discussions that I was aware of. To do this, I limited the discussions to two clearly defined areas; talk pages in both the Israel and Palestine Wikiprojects, and RSN.
- This does mean I missed at least one discussion that I am aware of where I was too enthusiastic, but it also means I missed discussions where you were too enthusiastic - it balances out.
- I am also aware, and prominently state in the analysis, that it is only an approximation - while most examples listed will be bludgeoning, exceptions will exist, including possibly the discussion you mention.
- Finally, as I said on the analysis page, I am willing to rerun it with different configurations, including an expanded list of discussions. I am also working to implement the recommendations on the talk page, to make the data more accurate and useful. BilledMammal (talk) 22:47, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Rosguill: There is a lot of POVPUSHING at RSN, but from what I've seen the issue is more common - and more effective - in the opposite direction from what you've seen.
- For example, looking at two of the discussions you've listed:
- At the ADL RFC an editor argued that it was unreliable due to "severe bias"
- At the Al Jazeera RFC the same editor argued that bias wasn't sufficient reason to change it's status from "generally reliable"
- Considering that policy doesn't provide any support for considering a source unreliable on grounds of bias, I find this example particularly problematic. BilledMammal (talk) 10:34, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Nishidani: I don’t consider the distinction relevant, because there is no basis in policy to consider sources unreliable due to bias, regardless of the level of bias. Tolerating editors making the assessment that source A is more biased than source B, and thus A is unreliable while B is not, is to tolerate POV pushing. BilledMammal (talk) 23:47, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Nishidani: The purpose of RSN is to determine the reliability of sources, not the level of bias. There is no basis in policy to consider biased sources unreliable, and that means that editors attempting to argue that "source they don’t like" is more biased and thus less reliable than "source they like" are POV pushing.
- Alone, not enough to warrant action - but it is another piece of evidence that adds to evidence like only supporting the use of "massacre" when the victims are from the side they support. BilledMammal (talk) 01:58, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Nishidani: I don’t consider the distinction relevant, because there is no basis in policy to consider sources unreliable due to bias, regardless of the level of bias. Tolerating editors making the assessment that source A is more biased than source B, and thus A is unreliable while B is not, is to tolerate POV pushing. BilledMammal (talk) 23:47, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Black Kite: I've attempted to address your request to identify
Sub-5000-edit accounts which are basically SPAs on the PIA area, some of which will inevitably be socks but even if they're not are equally disruptive
with ARBPIA activity statistics. - I've included all editors with more than 500 edits since 2022 who have made 50%+ of their edits in the ARBPIA topic area. Sub-5000-edit accounts are marked with *; sock puppets and masters are marked with bold.
- @Aoidh: What sort of information would be helpful in determining a scope? In addition, will parties be decided at this stage, or will parties be able to be added during the evidence phase? BilledMammal (talk) 12:53, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
- Regarding the prevalence of issues in the topic area, the following may be helpful:
- RM statistics, regarding the prevalence of POV pushing
- Activity statistics, regarding the prevalence of sock puppets and single purpose accounts
- @Sean.hoyland: I think it demonstrates that the issue of sockpuppets is less significant than we believe. In 2024, only one sockmaster is in the top 100 editors by edit count within the topic area.
- @Nishidani: I think it also addresses your concerns regarding the parties list; because it shows that the topic area is dominated by editors who generally align with a pro-Palestinian position, we would expect that such editors would make up the majority of a representative party list.
- BilledMammal (talk) 05:14, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
- @Nableezy: As I said on that page:
Bolded votes in the discussion were then automatically reviewed to determine whether they supported or opposed. This process is not perfect, and manual review was then used for some of the discussions of the most prolific editors. Please raise any identified misclassifications on the talk page.
- Immediately jumping to accusations that an editor is "lying" is not aligned with WP:AGF, and is emblematic of the civility issues in the topic area.
- With that said, I don't believe #3 is as incorrect as you make out; your !vote was:
Oppose - euphemistic in the extreme, an "incident" in which an army kills 6 children and a cameraman, and all casualties are civilians? No source calls it an incident either. As far as sources calling it a massacre, well this was in the article until it was removed.
- You oppose the move, and you make arguments in support of "massacre".
- However, to avoid dispute, I have changed that cell to - , as while you can argue you didn't support "massacre", I don't think you're arguing you opposed it? I've also manually reviewed all the others of yours, and they appear correct; if you disagree with any of the others, please let me know.
- @Selfstudier: You're right, corrected. Please let me know if there are other misclassifications.
- In general, that table is intended to provide on overview of the issue in the topic area, for the purpose of helping the arb's determine scope and parties. While it will be useful in any case that is opened, and I see it as evidence of POV pushing, I don't believe it proves POV pushing by itself; additional analysis of the comments and !votes made is required, such as I did here. BilledMammal (talk) 14:12, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
- @Nableezy: To avoid dispute, I've switched #22 for Iskandar323 to - . I've manually re-reviewed all of Iskandar323's other !votes, and they appear accurate, but if you have any issues with them please let me know - although preferably on the talk page, to avoid requiring the Arb's to wade through the collaborative process of improving that table. If I refuse to change the table I think that would be when it is appropriate to raise here. BilledMammal (talk) 14:32, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
- @Nishidani: Seggallion (talk · contribs) is included in the activity statistics; they're grouped as one of Icewhiz's socks: Icewhiz (talk · contribs) (×6) . As for the RM statistics, Seggallion only participated in one; if you like, I can try to group sockpuppets under their masters as I did at the activity statistics, but better to discuss that on the talk page. BilledMammal (talk) 14:20, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
- @Nableezy: As I said on that page:
- Regarding the prevalence of issues in the topic area, the following may be helpful:
- @Zero0000: My sympathies lie more with Israel than with Palestine, although I try to recognize and account for any bias that introduces in my thinking - while editors are allowed to have a POV, I think the first step in ensuring their editing is aligned with NPOV is for them to recognize that POV, as it allows them to try to manage it.
- I think it would also be helpful if you told us how you classify yourself? BilledMammal (talk) 14:59, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
- @Sean.hoyland: Personally, I don't subscribe to the position that
the media, organizations, governments, academia (everyone?) etc. is biased against Israel
; while some individual sources are biased, I also think a lot of the criticism of Israel is fair. - There are some editors who do subscribe to that position - but there are also editors who subscribe to the position that the opposite is true, that they are biased against Palestine.
- Generally, I don't think we're mischaracterizing
pro-Wikipedia as pro-Palestinian
, but if you want something more solid I think this table by Thebiguglyalien, and my RM table, is useful. BilledMammal (talk) 15:48, 2 September 2024 (UTC)- I disagree that the label is unfalsifiable; evidence can be provided for and against it.
- I think we can also ensure it is accurate through a collaborative process. For example, looking at the top 20 editors at activity statistics, I believe that 13, collectively making 75,383 edits to the topic area since 2022, generally align with a pro-Palestinian position. I believe two, collectively making 5,832 edits, generally align with a pro-Israeli position. The remaining five, collectively making 19,550 edits, are either neutral or have a position that I have been unable to determine:
Extended content
|
---|
Generally align with a pro-Palestinian position:
Generally align with a pro-Israeli position:
Neutral or have a position that I have been unable to determine:
|
- If you - or anyone - disagree with any of these, then I think it would be helpful to discuss so that we can create a consensus list, although I would ask that the discussion be opened somewhere other than here. For the avoidance of doubt, this doesn't mean these editors are POV pushing. For example, while I feel it's obvious where Vice regent's sympathies lie, I've been very impressed by their ability to put them aside to comply with NPOV.
- As for the utility, I think it helps us determine whether concerns such as those raised by Nishidani that the party list is unrepresentative, as well as concerns such as those raised by Number 57 that the topic area is dominated by editors holding a specific POV, are accurate.
- As a general note, I think one of the issues with the topic area is that it is common for editors to refuse to acknowledge their own POV, while frequently insisting that the editors they disagree with have a POV. It's possible to manage a POV and edit neutrally, but only if one is able to recognize and acknowledge that POV - the frequent failure, on both sides, to do so is why we have a POV pushing issue in this topic area. BilledMammal (talk) 16:43, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
- @Levivich and Nishidani: The terms just means that the editor sympathizes with that side more than the other. Both positions are reasonable, and it doesn't mean they are anti-Palestinian/anti-Israeli, nor does it mean that there is a problem with those editors contributions.
- All it does is help us understand the dynamics of the topic area, and is particularly helpful in understanding the background to comments like
I say that because there is a massive imbalance in the people singled out, according to the usual perceptions of the IP area's POV-stand-off
. - I also think, Levivich, that you're too focused on the sock issue. It exists, although perhaps it is not as impactful as we previously believed, but socks aren't the only issue in the topic area. POV-pushing among established editors is also rife, and is far more impactful than POV-pushing by socks.
- The "massacre" RM's demonstrate that well; we have editors consistently, based on their own POV, saying that massacre's are only perpetrated by one side - and when we review those discussions we find that those editors present contradictory arguments to support this disparity.
- (Nishidani, I do have more to say in regards to your comments - I'm not ignoring the questions/statements you made - but I don't have time at the moment) BilledMammal (talk) 22:15, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
- @Zero0000: That’s a discussion about moving from a title using "massacre" (Re'im music festival massacre) to a title using "massacre" (Supernova music festival massacre) In other words, the "massacre" aspect isn’t being considered, which is why it isn’t included in the table:
discussions that proposed moving an article to or away from a title containing "massacre" were reviewed
- Can you clarify your point about the other articles? I don’t fully understand the argument you are trying to make.
- (Also, I would appreciate an answer to the question I asked you above, when I answered the equivalent question from you) BilledMammal (talk) 04:36, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- @Zero0000:
- Regarding this comment:
- For your first point, I disagree that it sheds factual light. There is no useful information from someone supporting moving "massacre" to "massacre"; indeed, it is indistinguishable from someone opposing moving "massacre" to "massacre".
- For you second point, I want to say I am tired of the incivility in this topic area. It drove me from it before, with the only reason I returned to it being the current conflict, and it is sufficiently bad that I believe as soon as the current conflict ends I will withdraw again.
- Both your points, but especially the second, are emblematic of that incivility. A dozen requests have been made of me at User talk:BilledMammal/ARBPIA activity statistics and User talk:BilledMammal/ARBPIA discussion statistics, and I have spent a considerable amount of time addressing those requests, including two of three you made.
- However, you ignore all of this, to focus on one of two that I haven't yet been able to address - and you use that failure to accuse me of manipulating the data to prevent it from
disturb[ing] the point [I] want to make
. I admit, I don't consider it a priority (although I have already spent some time on it), as I don't see what useful information it would provide, and your explanation didn't clarify that - but not prioritizing your request is not the same as manipulating the data, and there is no justification for these assumptions of bad faith. - Regarding this comment:
- (a) - It does;
Edits made since 2022 to article and talk space
- (c) - This is actually similar to the other request that so far I've been unable to comply with. If you can provide me a couple of topic areas of similar size to ARBPIA, I can address both your request and NebYs. BilledMammal (talk) 08:04, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- @SashiRolls: Because it’s data, not methodology.
- I'm not sure why you think that I believe it is unrelated to disruption in the topic area. It is related, but it’s not in the scope of that table, which is focused on presenting information about individual actors.
- If you want to present evidence about grouped actors, I again encourage you to do so. BilledMammal (talk) 12:51, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Zero0000
I object to being listed here. But now that I'm here, I'll say that I don't see any suggestions so far that would make an improvement to the I/P area. Here are some points:
- If any restrictions are imposed on the area, they should apply to everyone and not to some arbitrary list like this one. One of the notable things about the I/P area in the past several months is the remarkable number of new and revived accounts that have joined in, mostly on one side of the equation and many with scant knowledge of the subject. Quite a lot of the disputes arise because of them, not because of the people likely to comment at AE.
- Imposing a limit on contributions that consists of a word limit or edit limit will cause delight to the tag teams, who will take full advantage of their combined greater limit.
- Some types of discussion such as a negotiation between two editors should not have a limit at all. Also, in general there is no way to define "a discussion" except in the case of formal discussions like RfCs. The main points of dispute are brought up repeatedly and don't have clear boundaries. This means that a limit on "discussions" will just produce a lot of arguments over whether something was part of the same discussion or part of a different discussion.
- Bludgeoning does not mean making a lot of edits. Replying to everyone who makes a contrary comment is bludgeoning, but repeatedly bringing new reliable sources is called good editing.
- There is a reason why many editors who enter the I/P area quickly decide that it is toxic and controlled by a cabal. It's because they come along armed with nothing except strong political opinions and a few newspaper articles, and don't like it when they meet experienced editors familiar with the vast academic literature. The small fraction of new editors who arrive with genuine knowledge of the topic have a much better time of it. All of this is exactly as it should be. Zerotalk 11:34, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
Here is something that will improve the atmosphere of formal discussions (RMs, RfCs, AfDs, etc): Require everyone to stick to their own statement, regardless of how many times they add to it (like at AE). This will eliminate 90% of bludgeoning right away. For RfCs: one statement in the !votes section and one statement in the Discussion section. Zerotalk 09:44, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
- To editor Sean.hoyland: It's great to see someone present actual evidence. The number of distinct editors in I/P has remained essentially the same for the past 8 years until it suddenly jumped up at the start of the present war. I wonder, is there a simple way to show the same data without the articles specifically related to the war? Removing articles created from Oct 7, 2023 onwards might be a good approximation. Don't spend time on it unless it is easy. Zerotalk 01:34, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
- To editor CaptainEek: I don't think ArbCom has an obligation to resolve the AE case. The fact is that there is nothing about it which AE could not handle perfectly well by itself. What you should do is send it back to AE (taking the cue from the practice of appellant courts sending cases back to the referring lower court). Meanwhile, no case has been made for PIA5. We have seen wild assertions without evidence, that's all, and it would be a mistake to take them at face value. Considering that there is a shooting war going on right now, ARBPIA is actually in better shape than one would expect. I've been editing in ARBPIA for over 22 years and for most of that time it was in worse shape than now. Zerotalk 04:36, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
To editor BilledMammal: In several places, such as here you have granted yourself the right to classify other editors as "pro-Israel" and "pro-Palestinian". Please tell us how you classify yourself. Zerotalk 14:55, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
To editor BilledMammal: Please add this RM to your table, and mark Iskandar323 as supporting "massacre" in the title. Sorry that it breaks the pattern. Readers should also note the selection bias in your table: even though many editors who supposedly only support "massacre" when the victims are Palestinians frequented Be'eri massacre, Kfar Aza massacre and Alumim massacre, none of them started an RM nor (on a cursory scan) questioned the use of "massacre". But this tacit acceptance of the facts is absent from your analysis. This is just one example of how your raw data tends to misrepresent reality. A proper analysis would need to compare reliable sources against !voting patterns. Zerotalk 04:27, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- To editor BilledMammal: Your response to my request is what I expected and thanks for confirming my suspicion. You are refusing to present information that might shed factual light on the subject when it disturbs the point you want to make. Another example is your refusal to separate main space from talk space in the other tables (example: only 17% of Selfstudier's edits this year were in mainspace, but who knows?). My greatest fear is that arbitrators will think that you are just a helpful provider of objective information when in fact you are one of the main area protagonists and your data must be critically examined with that in mind. Zerotalk 04:58, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
Concerning pro-Israeli versus pro-Palestinian. Levivich deconstructs this division better than I could, and I wholeheartedly endorse his analysis. In terms of disputes, the most common division is between those who uncritically accept Israeli official versions and those who don't. Being critical of Israeli propaganda is completely different from being uncritical of Palestinian propaganda. Zerotalk 06:16, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
BilledMammal invites me to describe my own pov. In the early days of WP when many editors had never heard of academic journals and very few of the best sources were online, I played a large part in making scholarly writing the gold standard in I/P topics. My philosophy is that articles should be based on the best sources available, regardless of which other sources technically pass RS. No editor other than me openly avoids citing either Ilan Pappe or Ephraim Karsh (academics at opposite ends of the pov spectrum). Incidentally, none of the articles directly related to the 2023 Hamas attack on Israel or the subsequent Israeli response appear among my 1,500 most-edited articles, and Talk pages come it at number 412. No wonder I failed my Pro-Palestinian Activism exam. Zerotalk 06:16, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
Some quick comments on this contributions table by Billed Mammal.
(a) The table combines talk page edits and article edits (BM: you should indicate that). The fraction of a user's edits that are in article space differs a lot and needs to be considered before judging an editor's habits, but this information is missing.
(b) Overall, 975 days are included. This means that even the largest edit count, that of Selfstudier, is only 15 edits per day (in fact effectively less, guessing 9–10, as Selfstudier often makes consecutive small edits). My count at #16 in the list is only 2.5 edits per day, which is remarkably few given that my watchlist of length 8,687 includes most ARBPIA articles).
(c) The top 20 contributors made 23% of the edits. I don't know how to check this, but I'm guessing that in most areas of similar size the top 20 contributors make a larger fraction of edits than this. Without this information, it cannot be concluded that a small cabal of editors dominate the area. Zerotalk 07:22, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
At Talk:Re'im_music_festival_massacre/Archive_2#Requested_move_8_October_2023, Iskandar323 actually proposed two titles with "massacre" in them. I'll leave it for readers to decide whether or not this is irrelevant to the claim that Iskandar323 only supports "massacre" when the victims are Palestinian. Zerotalk 09:38, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- @Sean.Hoyland: I calculated the 23% figure using the total of 431,132 that BM gave elsewhere. Using your total of 473,212 it would be 21% unless your way of counting also changes the top 20 counts. Also, the top contribution was 3.1%. Zerotalk 14:29, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
To editor Barkeep49: I'm sure BilledMammal's counts are more or less correct. Sean.hoyland is getting similar figures. What I object to is posting a mass of figures then claiming it proves things which it doesn't prove. Drawing conclusions from the data requires much more than a first impression. First it requires consideration of whether the apparent trends are really unreasonable — what should we expect the data to look like if the topic is in good shape? Second, it requires consideration of what information is available but not represented in the data and whether it changes the picture. Neither of those two things have been done. (Critique of statistical experiments is one of my professional specialties.) Zerotalk 15:12, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
Comments on the motions
Motion 1: Appeals only to ArbCom. This gives more discretion to admins without good reason. A better idea would be to encourage AE to forward individual appeals to ArbCom if they think ArbCom is better equiped to handle them.
Motion 2a: Word limits. This will be a gift to tag-teams, who will get 500 words per person. Also, this will prevent the most productive comments, which bring reliable sources and quote from them. This motion would effectively limit discussions to "you say, I say", when they should be "this reliable source says".
Motion 3: Involved participants. This is a dreadful idea. Practically nobody attends these discussions without a pov. The effect will be that newcomers summoned on off-wiki groups, who usually come with a minimum of knowledge, will have greater rights than dedicated editors who are expert on the subject. Also, there will be endless argument over who is "involved".
Motion 4: Enforced BRD. This could work if "substantive reason" requires a talk page explanation and not just a brief edit summary.
Zerotalk 07:33, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
Gripe. Instead of proposing changes that will make it harder to write articles and not solve any problems, our dear arbs should consult the regulars in the field who know what changes will be beneficial. Zerotalk 08:34, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
Statement by ScottishFinnishRadish
There is a broad array of disruptive editing, POV pushing, long term edit wars, bludgeoning, incivility, and it all basically comes down to WP:BATTLEGROUND. I've done my best to take care of all of the obvious cases that won't have to set aside a dozen hours of time to deal with, but much of the behavior is by editors with numerous prior warnings and sanctions but that topic banning, interaction banning, and blocking is not a simple matter. Most AE reports in the topic area involve behavior that is widespread among many parties, and picking out a single party for sanctioning and allowing other editors to continue the behavior isn't how enforcement should be working.
If Arbcom does wish to avoid a full case or "punt", as Barkeep puts it, there are a couple actions they can take to help out in the interim.
- As a sanction across the topic area, or added to the standard set of CTOP enforcement mechanisms available to administrators on a per editor or per discussion sanction, a 500 word limit in any discussion under 5000 words, and a 1000 word or 10% of the discussion limit, whichever is lower, on discussions over 5000 words. This should be done immediately, even if a case is accepted.
- Any appeals of sanctions by editors previously warned or sanctioned in ARBPIA should be handled by Arbcom to take pressure off individual administrators. Arbcom discussions have clerks to handle word limits, aspersions, and other disruptive editing. Arbcom can simply vote on if the sanction was a reasonable exercise of administrator discretion. This would hopefully cut down significantly on 0.3 tomats discussions at appeals, and put those decisions in the hands of the people the community elected to make them. (Hat tip to Red-tailed hawk, who came up with this.)
As for a party list, anyone who has made, been the subject of, or commented at any ARBPIA AE report since October 2023. The problem is widespread, and I think that is probably the most efficient way to generate a party list. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:29, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
- Levivich, that part of BANPOL is just quoting Arbitration procedure, it can be changed by Arbcom. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:15, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
- ToBeFree, the tldr is the original complaint was more or less about tag team edit warring, looking into it I saw that it was, in my view, broadly similar to much of the behavior widespread in the topic area, and wasn't terribly interested in making one-off sanctions. It's incredibly widespread, as well as other disruptive behavior, and AE isn't the place to address topic-wide issues. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 00:03, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
- HJ Mitchell, simple cases of misbehavior of newish accounts are fairly easily handled, as I think my ~80 AE sanctions this year show. The issue arises when we're asked to look into tag-team or long-term edit warring, as we were in this case, and even cursory investigation shows that a large number of editors are involved. You can't have edit warring or tag teaming with just one party or one side. AE is not equipped to handle, or at least they're is no appetite to handle, multiple long-term edit wars involving large numbers of editors. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:26, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
- Maybe this idea is wild, but how about anyone named in someone's evidence becomes a party? This isn't a court of law, and being a party doesn't mean there has to be findings or sanctions. Add that if you go over the standard word/diff limits you become a party and Bob's your uncle. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 00:06, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- HJ Mitchell, if you're trying to avoid a case, something like Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Armenia-Azerbaijan 3#Administrators encouraged to let us know what the committee wants done would be helpful.
- Motion 3 is interesting, but it has to be clear if it is or is not a sanction, and if it should be applied to all regulars, or just over-engaged regulars.
- I think there's already an enforced BRD sanction, but it only applies to the editor that first made the edit. This would be more effective in this topic, where the reverts are often between several editors. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 22:16, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
- Barkeep49, I mean any guidance at all. Absent a case I want to know what Arbcom wants to see for enforcement. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 00:22, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
- Barkeep49, we don't know what's going to pass yet, so we don't know that any tools are being added to our toolbox. I think a clear statement from Arbcom about the topic area would be handy if they're going to punt. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 00:59, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
- Tryptofish,
We've got a problem, apparently, with a bottomless well of newish accounts that make life difficult for good-faith editors, which is something that AE should be able to handle.
You can see here that new(ish) accounts misbehaving are taken care of fairly promptly. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:41, 18 September 2024 (UTC) - Motion 4 needs to define
recent
. There's already no policy that defines a revert which makes 1rr a pain. Let's not have any more vague rules to enforce. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 10:48, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Barkeep49
Re:L25: I didn't support moving this here because I was looking for an ArbCom only remedy as I felt we had whatever options we wanted on the table per the Contentious topic procedures A rough consensus of administrators at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard ("AE") may impose any restriction from the standard set and any other reasonable measures that are necessary and proportionate for the smooth running of the project.
(emphasis added) I supported coming here because I think AE is ill-suited to a multi-party sprawling request like this. I actually think האופה is the least important party here in most ways and if the thread had stayed constrained to them a rough consensus would have been found. Instead, the discussion ballooned to potential misconduct by multiple other editors. For me the editors whose conduct needs examining would be BilledMammal, Iskandar323, Nableezy, and Selfstudier and I think ArbCom should review, and hopefully endorse, the work SFR has been doing as an uninvolved administrator given the concerns at least one of the parties (Nableezy) has raised about that work. Additionally, I think Levivich has been promoting, in this and some other recent AE reports, claims of misconduct based on tagteaming/edit warring that I personally don't find convincing (even if the same conduct does show other misconduct I do find convincing, namely a battleground mentality) but which ArbCom is better positioned to examine both because it can do so comprehensively, rather than in a series of one-off AE requests, and because of the authority ArbCom has to interpret existing policy and guidelines, [and] recognise and call attention to standards of user conduct
. Barkeep49 (talk) 19:55, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- I guess I should add one thing. If this ArbCom can't do the review of editor conduct well, and given that this is the committee with the biggest issues with activity among arbs of any 15-member arbcom in at least a decade it may decide it doesn't have the capacity to do this well, I'd suggest it find a way to "punt" that decision, instead focusing on whether or not it agrees with Levivich's interpetation of tag-teaming/edit warring. I say this based on comments members of the 2019 committee (a 13-member committee which is the only one to have a bigger activity problem than this committee) have made around their inability to give PIA4 and Antisemitism the full attention they deserved. In the latter case this then blew up into a much bigger case (WP:HJP). Barkeep49 (talk) 20:09, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Z1720 your "magical incantation" comment confuses me. Where did SFR say it was confusing how to refer? I've raised the issue that the mechanics of referring need work, but I don't think AE admins need to be told to bold vote something in order to find consensus to refer. All 4 uninvolved admins - with 4 uninvolved admins being a lot of admins these days - agreed to refer, and all 4 were (as best as I can tell) clear about what each other thought as opinions evolved, so it's not like it was a puzzle what was happening to the uninvolved admins and since other commenters gave feedback on whether or not to refer I don't think it was a puzzle to anyone else either. Barkeep49 (talk) 14:45, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Z1720 so you're saying the answer I gave is incorrect? If so mark me as surprised but glad for your clarification. I will eagerly await to see if a rough consensus of other arbitrators agree with you and presuming they do adjust my actions accordingly. Barkeep49 (talk) 15:09, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Z1720 thanks for that clarification. I want to understand this second parth. Am I correct that you're saying that if the 4 uninvolved administrators had all bolded
refer to Arbcom
no further action would have been needed as ArbCom (arbs/clerks) would do the rest of the steps? If so that is definitely easier than the answer I gave (close with a rough consensus to refer by an uninvolved admin, uninvolved admin files a case request here, and notifies all interested editors) and so I will happily take advantage of it going forward. Barkeep49 (talk) 15:34, 19 August 2024 (UTC)- @Z1720 does what I wrote above accurately summarize your thinking? I want to make sure to know whether to adjust my actions for any future potential referrals. Thanks, Barkeep49 (talk) 16:45, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks Z1720. Sounds like your reading is the same as what I had previously thought. So then I'm still confused about what your initial comment was suggesting - there was never any confusion (that I could see) among the uninvolved admins about what the rough consensus was at a given moment (even if I was asking for some time for a bit to see if we could avoid this referral). Barkeep49 (talk) 00:02, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Z1720 does what I wrote above accurately summarize your thinking? I want to make sure to know whether to adjust my actions for any future potential referrals. Thanks, Barkeep49 (talk) 16:45, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Z1720 thanks for that clarification. I want to understand this second parth. Am I correct that you're saying that if the 4 uninvolved administrators had all bolded
- @Z1720 so you're saying the answer I gave is incorrect? If so mark me as surprised but glad for your clarification. I will eagerly await to see if a rough consensus of other arbitrators agree with you and presuming they do adjust my actions accordingly. Barkeep49 (talk) 15:09, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
- Regarding Levivich's statement: even beyond what SFR pointed out (BANPOL is quoting Arbitration Procedures), I think Levivich operates under a fundamental misconception about AE. Levivich seems to view AE as a community forum, where as I feel it is, as the name of Arbitration Enforcment suggests an Arbitration Committee forum. Further, the sanctions being handed out are being done under Arbitration Committee authority, not community authority. As such under the Arbitration and Consensus policies, the Committee can do what it feels best including mandating that all appeals in this topic area are heard by it rather than AE. As to the substance of the SFR's suggestions, I'm not sure the committee wants to hear all appeals, but if it thinks SFR's idea is a good one I would suggest it limit itself to either or both of: appeals of recent sanctions (<3 or <6 months) and appeals stemming from an AE report (regardless of whether it is actioned by an inidivudal administrator or a rough consensus). I think giving uninvolved administrators the ability to use the tools available in Iranian politics to moderate discussions (not just RfCs) may or may not work, but would feel like something that could potentially be productive to stem issues without doing a full case and thus is perhaps worth trying. Barkeep49 (talk) 15:29, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Nishidani: the Arbitation Committee will decide who the parties are. So it might be RTH's list, it might be a smaller group of that, or it could be part of that and others not included there. Barkeep49 (talk) 15:23, 1 September 2024 (UTC)
- FWIW, I agree with the observations made by both Trypto and Nableezy that the "sides" here don't neatly align on pro-Israel/pro-Palestinian. Beyond the nuances they both have offered, I have seen a definite "established/multi-topic interested Wikipedian" vs "less-established more and/or more singularly focused Wikipedian" divide (for instance SFR has pointed out that Levivich's definition of tag-teaming could apply to some of former group but is only being applied against the latter group). This complexity is why I repeat my concern about ArbCom accepting a case unless it feels it truly has the capacity/ability to do it just because a lot of people (me included) are saying the status quo isn't working. Barkeep49 (talk) 16:27, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
- ToBeFree: I think the fact that the thread sprawled in the way it did despite the absence of האופה is exactly why the referral is here. There became so many other editors conduct to consider - not just in tag teaming but in the AE thread itself - that it became beyond what AE can handle well in its format. Barkeep49 (talk) 00:07, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
- 1) I want to make sure that ArbCom is aware of the highly related AN thread about RTH's INVOLVEMENT in this topic area. 2) To the extent that Levivich's version of what happened at AE is true, I don't think that argues against a case; it supports the idea that thetopic area needs to be examined, not just having a single complaint against a now inactive editor resolved. Barkeep49 (talk) 15:24, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
- One more note: if ArbCom does decide to just adjudicate the AE report for האופה it should also adjudicate Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#PeleYoetz which was closed as moot after this ARCA referral. Barkeep49 (talk) 17:02, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
- Selfstudier: I agree that
If no-one else had replied in the referred case, none of us would be here right now
is true. If no one else other than Levivich had replied, some quorum of admin would have been able to reach consensus on האופה. The fact that the replies that actually happened split the focus in a way that AE is ill-equipped to handle is why I ultimately (if reluctantly) agreed we should refer the case here. Barkeep49 (talk) 17:08, 30 August 2024 (UTC)- @Levivich I absolutely think you should be able to present evidence about admin conduct in this topic area. Knowing the concerns you and some others had is why I included SFR in my list of potential parties. And I think it's reasonable to say something like "after that initial post by SFR there was no choice but for a lot of other people to reply which is why that thread sprawled and PeleYoetz" didn't. But I stand by my agreeing with Selfstudier that
If no-one else had replied in the referred case, none of us would be here right now
. Selfstudier and I draw different conclusions about that statement we agree on and the Arbs can decide which conclusion they agree with as it's ultimately up to them. Barkeep49 (talk) 18:39, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Levivich I absolutely think you should be able to present evidence about admin conduct in this topic area. Knowing the concerns you and some others had is why I included SFR in my list of potential parties. And I think it's reasonable to say something like "after that initial post by SFR there was no choice but for a lot of other people to reply which is why that thread sprawled and PeleYoetz" didn't. But I stand by my agreeing with Selfstudier that
- HJ Mithcell: I think there are in the AE thread referring this here
allegations that a particular editor is behaving tendentiously
, namely BilledMammal, Nableezy, and Selfstudier (and maybe also Levivich?). I think some of these allegations are stronger than others but those allegations are 100% part of why this case was referred to you. Barkeep49 (talk) 21:46, 1 September 2024 (UTC) - I can appreciate and support Trypto's scope, though I'd suggest that a narrower party list is appropriate. I would also note that, today, we've had an editor present evidence right here about the topic area and multiple others accuse that editor of lying about the evidence. This suggests three possibilities to me: the editor made up/manipulated evidence, the people accusing that editor of lying are casting personal attacks, or there is such bad faith among topic area editors that honest mistakes/normal editorial choices while summarizing information is seen as being done with malevolent intent. In theory ArbCom is best positioned to figure out which of these things is true in this and several other similar accusations. And if ArbCom decides they can't (or don't have capacity to stay on top of this kind of conduct during a case), I hope they consider an intermediary step until ArbCom would have the capacity to do this. Barkeep49 (talk) 23:43, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
- Trypto: I think determining who should be party to an ArbCom case based on who happened to show up to an AE thread isn't the right way to determine a party list. The party list I gave might be too small but equally discouraging participation at AE because you might become party to a case when there is no accusation you've done anything wrong isn't going to help this topic area either, in my view. Barkeep49 (talk) 23:57, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
- @Nishidani: I feel like you're saying we disagree (for the 2nd time here) but I don't think we do? If BilledMammal is presenting misleading evidence that is important to know and act on, especially if that evidence is intentionally misleading. Barkeep49 (talk) 14:46, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- I want to bring to ArbCom's attention this message from Levivich to BilledMammal about this ongoing AE report. Barkeep49 (talk) 20:37, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
- I think SFR's AA3 motion would be counter productive - a real "the beatings will continue until morale improves" type of thing. Barkeep49 (talk) 00:12, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
- @ScottishFinnishRadish is any comment needed? They're giving new tools in response to the problems brought forward. Presumably the idea is that AE and individual admins start using those tools? Barkeep49 (talk) 00:31, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
- My thinking is that if ArbCom feels like they have enough information to make a clear statement other than "we don't see a problem" they should just take action themselves rather than telling AE admin how to do it. I think the potential tools is a far better alternative to any statement they might pass in lieu of a case (as opposed to at the end of a case where I think such statements can be genuinely useful). Barkeep49 (talk) 01:07, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
- @ScottishFinnishRadish is any comment needed? They're giving new tools in response to the problems brought forward. Presumably the idea is that AE and individual admins start using those tools? Barkeep49 (talk) 00:31, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
As ArbCom considers an appropriate response I'll throw out a potentially bad idea. Jeske's suggestion that there could be separate "topic area" and "editor conduct" cases and my suggestion of a delayed start to a case could be combined. So perhaps the topic area happens now and that could inform both tools (which might solve certain editor issues) and parties to a future editor conduct case. Either case could also allow for an examination of the pieces only arbcom can handle because of their offwiki nature (including what was oversighted during this request). That said some kind of motions along the lines of what Harry offers could be worth a try, as could a narrower case that Aoidh proposes (though I think the odds of success are slimmer here because disruption truly is more widespread than just the "power users" who show up at places like AE). Barkeep49 (talk) 20:34, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
- @Barkeep49 (and anyone else watching) I think at this point there are no bad ideas. Part of my rationale for proposing the motions was to see if they sparked any better ideas. Separate cases might be worth thinking more about. How would we structure a general case about the topic area to avoid it becoming a mud-slinging contest? HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 21:42, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
- ArbCom commits to not sanctioning editor conduct in such a case (except for conduct during the case) would be my most serious suggestion. In more of a brainstorming mode, somehow structure evidence slightly differently (post themes - source manipulation, edit warrning, etc and allow submissions for that them), you could do summary style again (would not recommend given how much time it took but it is a way and I think it accomplished the goal you're concerned about here) I haven't reread the past split case @Jéské Couriano points out recently so there might be other ideas to glean from reading those (and reading what the arbcom at the time wrote about them privately). Barkeep49 (talk) 21:53, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
- @Starship.paint: and @Sean.hoyland: one of the reasons I requested CU back was to help in this topic area. But the CU policy has a globally established floor (one which is monitored by the Ombuds who report directly to the Board of the WMF which underscores how seriously its taken). Unlike most global policies where enwiki has far stricter rules, for CU (and OS) I think we're already operating close to, if not at, the floor. So if there are articulable reasons that justify CU it can be done - as I did here - but "make it easier to run CU" isn't something ArbCom or even enwiki can decide. Barkeep49 (talk) 14:43, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Theleekycauldron
@L235: I agree with Barkeep that this should be a full case. But Red-tailed hawk is right on his list of parties – this is a sprawling case where basically all of the regulars in the topic area have worked together to create a hostile battleground that AE hasn't been able to resolve. Not because of a lack of authority, but because of the complexity of the case combined with the standard unblockables problem. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 20:10, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Selfstudier: i think it's pretty clear looking at the chart that the number of new editors spiked because of the war (given that it spiked last october). i don't think you can claim from that chart alone what the impact of the regulars has been; it'd be ludicrous to say that the temperature in this area is lower than it was the day before the war began. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 09:58, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
Statement by PeleYoetz
Statement by TarnishedPath
I understand that the list of participants is everyone who was involved in a particular AE discussion or who was mentioned in that discussion. My editing in the topic area is limited, with a limited number of articles on my watchlist. I don't intend on following this closely. If my participation is desired at any point please ping me, presuming the case goes ahead. TarnishedPathtalk 22:28, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
Not sure if anyone has seen this article at Jewish News Syndicate which states that "Blake Flayton, a vocal commentator on Jewish and Israeli issues, responded to the post, calling the changes “egregious” and urging someone with expertise to edit the page to reflect what he considers to be a more accurate portrayal"
. When we are faced with this sort of off-wiki canvassing is it any surprise that there's some level of disruption to the topic area? TarnishedPathtalk 13:54, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
Comments on the motions (TarnishedPath)
To me it seems that Motion 3: Involved participants may have the effect of increasing the amount of off-wiki canvassing and use of socks that already occurs in this topic area. TarnishedPathtalk 03:33, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
@CaptainEek, I'd suggest that definition of "recent" is a long way from the community understanding and if implemented would give rise to increased edit warring both at the 1RR level and at the 3RR level. TarnishedPathtalk 11:07, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
- @CaptainEek, I've seen editors brought before AE where part of the evidence involved reverts to other edits well over a 24 hours old. So from what I've seen the idea of recent is older than 24 hours. I don't have an answer on what I think should be a good threshold for what "recent" is, however I could foresee a lot of problems if it was defined as short as 24 hours. TarnishedPathtalk 00:19, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Nishidani
I object to being hauled into this artificial mess (caused by an innovation in reading that defines all reverts as identical behaviourally irrespective of contexts, so if I revert an unfactual or unsourced piece of WP:OR, I immediately am, like the abusive, often new, editor, engaged in a revert war and, if the abusive editor persists, anyone else who restores the accurate text is tagteaming with me. Crazy). I have been repeatedly reported over the last year, and invariably the cases were dismissed. They were frivolous, but ‘there is no smoke without fire’ psychological atmosphere created by this repetitive questioning of my policy-adherence and good faith, indeed, precisely because AE rejected these piddling reports, the claim emerges that editors like me are ‘untouchable’ (Occam's razor. When a theory fails, those convinced of it invent another theory (Untouchables here) to account for why it was not accepted, etc.). The result here is a series of intemperate variations of a boilerplate meme chanted about the I/P area, which I have heard for a dozen years used of individual editors but now used of a group, first targeted by several off-wiki sites and now pushed as a reality which slipped past our monitoring for 20 years. And it is just an unsubstantiated opinion, esp. from editors I’ve almost never seen here, and, surprisingly seems to be getting some traction.
- theleekycauldron this is a sprawling case where basically all of the regulars in the topic area have worked together to create a hostile battleground that AE hasn't been able to resolve
- Tryptofish the editing environment disturbingly toxic, . . it felt like a fairly large number of experienced editors, together, were acting in a way inconsistent with a CTOP subject.' (See this note)
- AirshipJungleman29:a large number of experienced editors . . turning the entire topic into even more of a WP:BATTLEGROUND than it needs to be, but also negatively affects the experiences and habits of newer editors who follow the combative, actively hostile methods of those they look up to.
- Swatjester;The tendentiousness, bludgeoning, and sealioning behavior from these battleground editors makes it exhausting and frustrating for non-battleground editors to participate. In any event, I see the "usual suspects" attempting to downplay or deny that there's any dispute
- Number 57: there is a core group of 10-15 editors in this topic area (many of whom have been with us for well over a decade) who are primarily on Wikipedia to push their POV . . for most of the last two decades the two sides have been seriously mismatched in terms of numbers and one side has been consistently able to push their POV through weight of numbers, either by long-term tag teaming or by swinging poorly-attended discussions
- The Kip: This pivot was due to the absurd levels of incivility, condescension, POV-pushing, bludgeoning, edit-warring, hypocrisy, and virtually every other type of WP:BATTLEGROUND editing humanly possible, from a core group of editors that perennially show up to scream at each other in every discussion; there's a level of toxicity that just makes me want to ignore the area entirely. This BATTLEGROUND issue is only compounded by the fact that virtually all of the culprits are WP:UNBLOCKABLE . . - I openly endorse nuking the topic area's userbase via mass TBANs.
- Zanahary: It’s a small group of editors making this topic area hell for editors and a headache (I’d imagine) for administrators. I used to involve myself heavily in this topic area, and it’s the only such area where I’ve witnessed personal attacks, bullying, glaring dishonesty and hypocrisy in defense of violation of WP policy.
- Domeditrix there is a culture of bludgeoning, tag teaming and tendentious editing, particularly of the Righting Great Wrongs variety. , , , editors here incredibly experienced, incredibly knowledgeable of processes, , , enable(s) Wikilawyering on a scale that I've frankly not encountered anywhere else on Wikipedia in my history of making active edits. . topic area where, as @ABHammad observes, Wikipedia is out-of-step with a large number of the reliable sources that we rely on for other topics . . I find myself aligning with @The_Kip's suggestion of nuking the topic area with mass topic bans. This is a WP:BATTLEGROUND
- Thebiguglyalien the entrenched editors . . . their behavior is the worst of any topic area on Wikipedia. Everyone here knows which users I'm talking about and which sides they fall on . . This will always be a contentious topic, but it is possible to prioritize the sources over your own beliefs when editing in contentious topics. The current regulars have forced out anyone who might be willing to do this. . .
- xDanielx: the two sides have been seriously mismatched in terms of numbers.
- berchanhimez:I see the only solution being the indefinite removal (topic ban - not warning) of any and all experienced editors who have, even just once, turned the heat up.
Where is the empirical evidence for these outrageous spluttering caricatures of a very complex environment (The IP area is notorious for the huge academic industry of explanation that has grown up around it, and unless you read this material, and put aside using newspaper current events sourcing as the default RS, you are not going to grasp anything there for encyclopedic ends. Who would be so stupid, if their intention was to 'create a toxic battleground', spend decades reading hundreds of books and scholarly articles, when they could simply do what hundreds of SPA and socks do, rack up 500 edits and then, without losing time opening a book, and if caught out, sock, resock, and resock again, in order to sock the 'regular' editors with their opinions, and try to provoke them so they may garner evidence for destroying them at AE?). There is no evidence here, none, as far as I can see, but no doubt some will think, ‘ah, but they’ll find the missing proof for these claims when Arbcom gets to work’. And why should it work on such an outburst of unproven grievances? As I noted on my page, there is a very simple test to find evidence for this hypothesis of a conspiracy (against Israel, that is the tacit innuendo in those complaints above)/bullishly dominating control over IP articles by a 'pro-Palestinian' faction that has putatively consolidated itself as the power to reckon with in the area. Use your wiki tools and elicit confirmation of this bias by examining the list of 100 new IP articles created since 7 October (SFR's starting point). Of the hundreds of editors active over them, show that a handful of the 'regulars' has bludgeoned, intimated, harassed, been uncivil across the board, and secured their 'pro-Pal POV'. If you can't then, all we have here is the appearance of blathering highly personalized grudges. Nishidani (talk) 10:16, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- Billed Mammal. Re this set of diffs, They are not valid evidence for what you claim for a very simple linguistic reason. 'Severe bias' and 'bias' are not interchangeable, the adjectival qualifier makes all the difference. All newspapers have bias, like humans. 'Severe bias' in a newspaper/organization is what makes it unacceptable, as distinct from others.Nishidani (talk) 13:47, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
- @User:BilledMammal. I'm sorry, but language and grammar are merciless in these things (and the fact that such niceties are missed so often is one reason reading ANI/AE discussions is, certainly for me, so painful -I was in part permabanned because one admin could not understand irony, though everyone else saw the amicable comedy of my, to him alone, 'aggressively' 'uncivil'/abusive remark). You are simply wrong. If you have played lawn bowls, then grasping whether the ball you are drawing has a wide or narrow bias is fundamental to mastering the art. The whole point of RSN deliberations, and you engage in them often, is to distinguish between narrow and wide bias in newspapers. A narrow bias doesn't imperil the general reliability of a source: a wide bias can lead to deprecation. I guess now, having told you you are flat-out wrong, I have now produced a diff that can be cited in just one more WP:CIVIL suit to be filed against me in the future:):(Nishidani (talk) 01:36, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- And Huldra thanks indeed for that link I'd never seen this data before, because I don't know how to consult files that log stuff on wiki.Nishidani (talk) 01:49, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- Swatjester. Surely you shouldn't take exception to a somewhat playful implication you were a 'cat'. Your presence is very rare in the IP area and your remarks about sealioning and 'the usual suspects' (people like myself) might give the impression of a detached view by an experienced admin. Not quite true. You admitted 17 years ago that you used your admin tools to unblock an Israeli editor for a 3R infraction because, offline he contacted you and convinced you he was justified in breaking the rule. You didn't even check to see if his wild offline claims (presumably about me) were correct. ([26],[27], [28] [29], [30]). When I read your first post here I remembered that contretemps. I never reported it as a misuse of admin tools, and I never hold grudges. But I do remember things, and took your generalization as coming from someone 'involved' in the topic area. Nishidani (talk) 09:30, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Swatjester re my putative 'atrocious behavior within this topic area'. You don't have to believe me when I say I don't hold grudges. But I have by all accounts a good memory. If someone out of the blue, whom I haven't seen around for 17 years, implies that I am one of the 'usual suspects', a sealioning bludgeoner, then recalling the earlier episode where they abused their admin tools and damaged my bona fides is more than fair. I was a newbie at that time (that shows in my remarks there), and was almost driven off by the arbitrary punitive measures made against me. I don't hold grudges because I made no formal complaint, which might have damaged you, and I have almost never had recourse, on principle, to making ANI/AE reports to settle disputes by getting someone who disagrees with me banned, a practice that is of chronic here, one used against me with unusual frequency. I exercise care in the words I use. 'atrocious' per Merriam-Webster means 'extremely wicked, brutal, or cruel: barbaric.' You're entitled to that view of me as someone displaying exceptional brutality and cruelty on wikipedia. But you should quietly ask yourself, because I don't report insults, how that squares with the content evidence of my creation of 1,000 plus articles as varied as Kaifeng Jews, Gadubanud, Joseph's Tomb and Irvin Leigh Matus.Nishidani (talk) 16:58, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Swatjester That incident occurred 17 years ago, when I was new to wikipedia, and, faced with an inexplicable administrative punishment (technically) I made the inferences one can see. I wouldn't do that now. What you don't deny is the gravamen of those two incidents (a) you used your administrative tools to unblock a sanctioned Israeli user after he talked to you privately (invisibly, without even examining the relevant pages where he broke 3R to verify his narrative) and (b) denied my own unblock request when, given the circumstances, you should have stayed out of this and left the decision to any other admin who was uninvolved. I gave all the relevant links, to allow editors to draw their own conclusions. Archaeologists of wiki disputes can judge for themselves. Nishidani (talk) 19:11, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- @User:Sean.hoyland. Thanks Sean. That is precisely the kind of empirical data we desperately need to as a work basis to get out of the suggestive/insinuating/subjective gossip mode often prevailing on wiki when it deliberates on core issues like this.Nishidani (talk) 16:45, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
- @User:CaptainEek. You write:
The world's mostmost intractable problem continues to be our most intractable problem.
- It is not an intractable problem on wikipedia, despite incessant rumour-mongering. It is, an enduring premise of mine, politically intractable, but not descriptively so, taking in both an Israel (semi-)official POV and the scholarship, to the end of achieving NPOV. To the contrary. We can draw on one of the richest WP:RS highbar resource bases existing, for the simple reason that:-
The Israel-Palestine issue has a strong claim to be the most closely studied conflict on earth. 'Voluminous' does not even begin to capture the sheer quantity of the material about it'.(Ian Black, Enemies and Neighbours: Arabs and Jews in Palestine and Israel, 1917-2017, Penguin UK. ISBN 978-0-241-00443-2 p.8 )
- A very large number of positions assumed to be contentious here are not so in that scholarly literature, where a large consensus on the historical realities exists. These however are relentlessly challenged by editors who don't care much for the ivory tower, but care deeply about a country to which they feel a profound emotional attachment (again, understandably, but love of country is not coterminous with love of any one particular government and/or its worldviews). To respin the disputes that arise as an irremediable clash between nationalist POVs is nonsense, but that is the temptation here. And, if this goes to ARBPIA5, the outcome is predictable. There will be two parties identified (regulars and nationalists/socks), and a number from each will be sanctioned, for wikipedia must not give the impression, particularly under the pressures over the last year, of siding with one 'side' or t'other. And why have we got to this? Because an innonative reading, impeccably 'behaviouralist' now takes all reverts, regardless of the rationales, to be on the same footing, and any series of reverts by different editors, regardless of the talk page or the RS literature (the contexts), as evidence of mutual tag-teaming. of course, there will also be a further tightening of the screws on 'behaviour', since everything else is considered a 'content issue' where it is presumed there are a variety of POVs that are, in any case, not up to admins to read up on or make judgments about. Nishidani (talk) 21:03, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
- And yes, seconding Zero, I really would like to see a minimum of evidence that the place has deteriorated to the point of requiring executive re-examination. What evidence we have is that there has been a massive investment of editors, a great many new, creating and working hundreds of articles since Oct.7. Personal experience is risible as evidence, but it was hell for the first decade of my working here, and I don't think growing senility accounts for my impression that over the last several years much of that heat has been significantly lowered, thanks to ARBPIA3. The only change I have witnessed is the sharp rise in newly registered accounts that behave oddly - my list has over a score, since Oct.7. That issue was what Levivich tried to address, and his reports somehow got transformed into assertions that they weren't the problem, the 'regulars' were, all based on hearsay circulating for at least a decade, hearsay drummed up by new off-wiki attack sites with a clear nationalist brief to go for wiki's IP jugular.Nishidani (talk) 10:14, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
- @User:Sean.hoyland. Thanks Sean. That is precisely the kind of empirical data we desperately need to as a work basis to get out of the suggestive/insinuating/subjective gossip mode often prevailing on wiki when it deliberates on core issues like this.Nishidani (talk) 16:45, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Swatjester That incident occurred 17 years ago, when I was new to wikipedia, and, faced with an inexplicable administrative punishment (technically) I made the inferences one can see. I wouldn't do that now. What you don't deny is the gravamen of those two incidents (a) you used your administrative tools to unblock a sanctioned Israeli user after he talked to you privately (invisibly, without even examining the relevant pages where he broke 3R to verify his narrative) and (b) denied my own unblock request when, given the circumstances, you should have stayed out of this and left the decision to any other admin who was uninvolved. I gave all the relevant links, to allow editors to draw their own conclusions. Archaeologists of wiki disputes can judge for themselves. Nishidani (talk) 19:11, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Swatjester re my putative 'atrocious behavior within this topic area'. You don't have to believe me when I say I don't hold grudges. But I have by all accounts a good memory. If someone out of the blue, whom I haven't seen around for 17 years, implies that I am one of the 'usual suspects', a sealioning bludgeoner, then recalling the earlier episode where they abused their admin tools and damaged my bona fides is more than fair. I was a newbie at that time (that shows in my remarks there), and was almost driven off by the arbitrary punitive measures made against me. I don't hold grudges because I made no formal complaint, which might have damaged you, and I have almost never had recourse, on principle, to making ANI/AE reports to settle disputes by getting someone who disagrees with me banned, a practice that is of chronic here, one used against me with unusual frequency. I exercise care in the words I use. 'atrocious' per Merriam-Webster means 'extremely wicked, brutal, or cruel: barbaric.' You're entitled to that view of me as someone displaying exceptional brutality and cruelty on wikipedia. But you should quietly ask yourself, because I don't report insults, how that squares with the content evidence of my creation of 1,000 plus articles as varied as Kaifeng Jews, Gadubanud, Joseph's Tomb and Irvin Leigh Matus.Nishidani (talk) 16:58, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- Swatjester. Surely you shouldn't take exception to a somewhat playful implication you were a 'cat'. Your presence is very rare in the IP area and your remarks about sealioning and 'the usual suspects' (people like myself) might give the impression of a detached view by an experienced admin. Not quite true. You admitted 17 years ago that you used your admin tools to unblock an Israeli editor for a 3R infraction because, offline he contacted you and convinced you he was justified in breaking the rule. You didn't even check to see if his wild offline claims (presumably about me) were correct. ([26],[27], [28] [29], [30]). When I read your first post here I remembered that contretemps. I never reported it as a misuse of admin tools, and I never hold grudges. But I do remember things, and took your generalization as coming from someone 'involved' in the topic area. Nishidani (talk) 09:30, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- And Huldra thanks indeed for that link I'd never seen this data before, because I don't know how to consult files that log stuff on wiki.Nishidani (talk) 01:49, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- @User:BilledMammal. I'm sorry, but language and grammar are merciless in these things (and the fact that such niceties are missed so often is one reason reading ANI/AE discussions is, certainly for me, so painful -I was in part permabanned because one admin could not understand irony, though everyone else saw the amicable comedy of my, to him alone, 'aggressively' 'uncivil'/abusive remark). You are simply wrong. If you have played lawn bowls, then grasping whether the ball you are drawing has a wide or narrow bias is fundamental to mastering the art. The whole point of RSN deliberations, and you engage in them often, is to distinguish between narrow and wide bias in newspapers. A narrow bias doesn't imperil the general reliability of a source: a wide bias can lead to deprecation. I guess now, having told you you are flat-out wrong, I have now produced a diff that can be cited in just one more WP:CIVIL suit to be filed against me in the future:):(Nishidani (talk) 01:36, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Barkeep. Just out of curiosity, if Arbcom opens a case, who are the editors whose behaviour is to be examined. The list given by Red-tailed hawk, or is it larger? I say that because there is a massive imbalance in the people singled out, according to the usual perceptions of the IP area's POV-stand-off.Nishidani (talk) 21:29, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Jéské Couriano. As far as I can see, your statistics do not note a deterioration over time of editing in the IP area. They only indicate that roughly half of the cases brought there are IP related, and that AE has efficiently sanctioned a large number of the editors reported. I could make many other inferences but leave a proper analysis to those competent in these matters.Nishidani (talk) 19:57, 31 August 2024 (UTC)
- BilledMammal BilledMammal I second Sean Hoyland’s remarks on your page. That is an excellent tabulation. I don't think it demonstrates anything of the sort, that 'pro-Pal' editors dominate the IP area. What it does show is that several editors you would include under that description devote more than half, or indeed in a few cases, most of their attention to the topic area. Greek studies are 'dominated' by people who've mastered the topic- That doesn't mean they are 'domineering' as the rumour-mill here is suggesting. Perhaps I'll have other observations later (here because I won't be participating in any Arbcome process)Nishidani (talk) 10:15, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
- Nableezy. The instance you provide, of BilledMammal classifying you as a supporter of the term 'massacre' when you did no such thing, confirms my wariness about drawing any conclusions from broad statistical charts like that. In the example where you are said to push 'massacre' (which is a reasonable preference anyway), what was going on won't be evident to the birds-eye perspective. The name-change was pushed by an old throwaway account by a NoCal sock User:Izzy Borden subsequently blocked on 21 July 2023. His view was supported by a suspected Icewhiz sock, User:Seggallion (38,036 edits). Another successful sock tagteaming operation since they did manage to change the name before being caught out. I don't know if it is proper to call this misrepresentation 'lying'. It is nonetheless the kind of error which can easily insinuate itself when one is applying to a massive data field algorithms that have no feel for context. Note that Icewhiz/User:Seggallion is missing from BilledMammal's chart unaccountably., comfortably slipping through the tool net despite 38,036 edits. Nishidani (talk) 12:38, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
- This isn't some pleas for myself, but a note to explain something about why the widespread enmity against 'longterm editors' who, several seem to believe, should be TNT'd so that the area can be rebuilt effectively, is a simpleton fantasy that can do enormous damage if taken seriously. Apart from the accrued area familiarity with its vivacious theatre of new editors who sound like oldtimers, and the RS literature one acquires, there is a dimension of experience, of what Polanyi called tacit knowledge that is wiped out by such bulldozing. Let me illustrate. I had a note on my page posed by an unfamiliar editor, Annette Maon. My instincts told me immediately that there was some echo in that voice I recognized from the past, and a few moments of thought prompted me to associate it with a prior editor, highly intelligent and articulate, very pro-Israel, but utterly unfamiliar with any of the scholarship. The name that popped up was Monochrome Monitor, with whom I engaged in at considerable length around 2016. But I had no, and do not have, and don't care to have, any proof that this intuition might be correct and indicate a dual account. What I did was reply alluding to the possibility the editor had a prior account. Whatever the truth, that editor desisted from further editing IP articles. Go figure. But only deep editing experience will give one the kind of informal knowledge (often subjective, but not infrequently spot on, though never mentioned) that helps one to assess things, beyond the issue of RS etc. If my informal hunch had been true, what followed would never show up in a statistical analysis like BM's. Nishidani (talk) 16:23, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
- As to the requested 'pro-Pal POV', that is inane language. I could give a long essay on the roots of my general outlook, from family tales of Irish dispossession (the genocidal consequences of (a) Cromwell's conquest (b) and the effect of the the great famine on our emigration to Australia; to the unusual circumstances of having a father and mother each with a very odd, in a racist Australian world, tradition of sympathy for Zulus and aborigines; to having a Downie as our youngest sister, to an adolescent reading of Holocaust memoirs; to reading Tsepon Shakabpa's political history of Tibet at 17; to specializing academically in the concepts of nationalist exceptionalism -all underdog stories and therefore a sense that any judgment must be grounded in universalist principles or logic. When I started reading wiki IP articles, Palestinian history was absent from most (so I rewrote Hebron) - there was a bias to just an israeli narrative of Jewish traditions there. So 'pro-Pal' is risible. Indeed, if I have an intellectual challenge reflected in my work here, it is to read to the end of trying to grasp how the universalism of the haskalah could morph into the nationalism of modern Israel, In that sense, Palestinians are incidental, to a much broader point-of-view. And lastly, there was this vast disparity between the cusp of scholarship and mainstream reportage, and editors were basically drawing on the latter, which is no way to write anything encyclopedic.Nishidani (talk) 20:09, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
- Billed Mammal.
looking at the top 20 editors at activity statistics, I believe that 13, collectively making 75,383 edits to the topic area since 2022, generally align with a pro-Palestinian position. I believe two, collectively making 5,832 edits, generally align with a pro-Israeli position.
- Look at it from another set of angles. What is the proportion of Palestinian (zero) vs (pro-)Israeli/Jewish editors in the IP area, for example? Or what is the proportion of bias in the mainstream sources we almost invariable regard as core RS. E.g.'33,000 news articles from 1987-1993 and 2000-2005 the article shows that anti-Palestinian bias persisted disproportionately in the NYT during both periods and, in fact, worsened from the First Intifada to the Second.' (Holly M Jackson, New York Times distorts the Palestinian struggle: A case study of anti-Palestinian bias in US news coverage of the First and Second Palestinian Intifadas Media, War & Conflict Volume 17, Issue 1 pp. 116-135)
- There is an extensive literature on this, not well covered in Media coverage of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict, and sometimes it may be quite disconcerting for those whose general information on the conflict comes from TV and mainstream newspapers to find that there is another, equally valid, perspective on events, and we must balance them for NPOV. There is absolutely no problem in finding massive coverage of events from a pro-Israeli perspective, but you have to frequently go to the scholarship to see the other side. And much of that scholarship comes from places like TAU and diaspora Jewish scholars (many also Zionist). 'Pro-Palestinian' implies 'anti-Israel' and that is why the term is totally unacceptable.Nishidani (talk) 21:01, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
- @Arkon. Whatever the outcome, I think this lengthy exchange of views, explorations of so many standard terms used to (mis)characterize what goes on in the putatively 'toxic' IP area, has been very useful. Instead of the intrinsic litigiousness of standard AE/ANI reports, this has been a productive (?hmm many will think TLDR perhaps) exploration in civilised dialogue, yeah with the odd edge of irritation or annoyance showing through, but that's picayune compared to the overall tone, of issues that we've never had quite the time to look into. The emergence of toolkit algorithmically generated evidence also was refreshing, an attempt, even if in my view, not quite as successful as one would like, to get a minimal empirical handle on what often is read as mere opinionizing. The rules of etiquette and strict topic focus all too often hinder discussions of what is really on editors' mind, before a community and its arbiters, and it is all to the good that we have been afforded this opportunity.Nishidani (talk) 22:07, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
The terms just means that the editor sympathizes with that side more than the other.
- Good grief. What on earth has sympathizing with a 'side', presumably either collectively 'Israelis' or 'Palestinians' got to do with it. It's not a football match where people look on, 'rooting for' (that is extremely vulgar in Australia, where we say 'barrack') our side, and, in doing so, boo the other. Sympathy when partisan is tribal, and modernity teaches us that, though Hillel the Elder put it superbly in his dictum:'What is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow: this is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation; go and learn,' which we have now in the form, 'Do not do unto others what you would not have them do to you.' To empathize along ethnic lines is to sap the very principle that underwrites this as a human virtue. So, what befell Jewish israelis in the kibbutzim, and the fate of the hostages elicits the same pain as one should feel at what befalls Palestinians. I admit that there are very strong drifts in representation which retribalize our principles, demanding that we showcase the tragedy of Israeli hostages, each with a photo and lifestory, while the parallel hostage-taking of Palestinians ( of the 9,170 arrested roughly 4000 are in administrative detention, i.e. held without trial, lawyers or due process, and probably without a skerrick of evidence like Khalida Jarrar) is systematically ignored. To state that, given the disparity, is not to espouse a pro-Palestinian perspective. It is simply to insist that our civilization in its laws and ethical principles commends our sympathies to go out to whoever suffers, regardless of the mean divisions of politics and ethnicity.Nishidani (talk) 22:43, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
- @Arkon. Whatever the outcome, I think this lengthy exchange of views, explorations of so many standard terms used to (mis)characterize what goes on in the putatively 'toxic' IP area, has been very useful. Instead of the intrinsic litigiousness of standard AE/ANI reports, this has been a productive (?hmm many will think TLDR perhaps) exploration in civilised dialogue, yeah with the odd edge of irritation or annoyance showing through, but that's picayune compared to the overall tone, of issues that we've never had quite the time to look into. The emergence of toolkit algorithmically generated evidence also was refreshing, an attempt, even if in my view, not quite as successful as one would like, to get a minimal empirical handle on what often is read as mere opinionizing. The rules of etiquette and strict topic focus all too often hinder discussions of what is really on editors' mind, before a community and its arbiters, and it is all to the good that we have been afforded this opportunity.Nishidani (talk) 22:07, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
today, we've had an editor present evidence right here about the topic area and multiple others accuse that editor of lying about the evidence.Barkeep49
Translation: Billed Mammal presented a very abstract set of charts, and multiple editors stated that BM was lying about the evidence in them.
Your three interpretations are (BM) lied, by falsifying the facts; (b) that multiple editors replied by making personal attacks; (c) that bad faith is so deep that honest mistakes/normal editorial choices in summarizing information are read between the lines as malevolent.
I find that extraordinary, a wild caricature and misreading of several distinct reactions to BM’s chart. Perhaps that simply because I can't remember reading anything in a very long thread that might support it. Other than Nableezy’s use of the term ‘lying/dishonest’ – for which he said he would produce evidence if asked by ARBCOM, who are the multiple editors dismissing BM’s evidence as mendacious, as opposed to unconvincing, unfalsifiable, ergo to be interpreted rather than taken for granted as proof, of whatever?
It would take a very long time to work one’s way through that chart. Tomorrow I will be travelling for a month, so I won't be participating in the Arbcom deliberations, if they take place. But in a quick check in the little time I've had, I found that BM’s conclusion that there were only 2 ‘pro-Israeli’ editors as opposed to 13 aligning with a ‘pro-Palestinian’ position hard to reconcile with evidence on his chart of which makes him the lowest (10%) IP contributor - though he is the most familiar name to me on that list, - when it includes User:Marokwitz (72%); User:Tombah (53% permabanned); User:Drsmoo (48%); User:Personisinsterest (49%); User:Dovidroth (39% banned from IP);User:Mistamystery (70%, low edit count);User:XDanielx (89%);User:Eladkarmel (43%), User:האופה (43% low edit count); User:רמרום (76%, low edit count); User:טבעת-זרם (89% low edit count); User:Wagtail66, low edit count; User:Kentucky Rain24 (56%, NoCal100 sock); User:The Mountain of Eden (low edit count); User:Afdshah (63%) low editaccount; User:Bolter21 (69%); User:Greyshark09 (57% few edits); User:Onlineone22 low edit count; User:Izzy Borden, sock); User:Seggallion (sock) , to mention a few of the names I mostly recognize as coming under that kind of general category.But then, this kind of analysis is way out of my field of competence.Nishidani (talk) 03:52, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- @*Barkeep. I had the distinct impression the line I quoted summed up (a) BM giving empirical evidence and (b) being attacked for doing so by several editors. My impression was that BM answered my solicitation for such evidence (on another page), came up with his charts and was immediately thanked by sean.hoyland and myself. Then Hoyland, Zero, with a professional competence in these things, questioned aspects of the chart, or the inferences BM drew from them as did SashiRolls. This was absolutely normal, consensual discussion. The only blip was Nableezy being upset at the way BM's chart distorted his comments. BM and Nableezy often collaborate and at times get annoyed at each other, but that is not 'multiple editors' getting at BM. What has been suggested is that his particular modelling of the data produces the kind of result he'd be comfortable with, and that is a point very frequently made of papers in population genetics and other fields. Confirmation bias works everywhere, but in no way implies duplicity.* Best Nishidani (talk) 16:37, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- Don’t know what’s happening, but keep me out. If the argument is that I’m bias, true, but I try as hard as I can to be neutral, and I can provide examples of this. Personisinsterest (talk) 09:59, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
Statement by DMH223344
Can someone explain to me what this is all about? Specifically, how is this AE related to the previously closed one? And what am I being asked to do here?
Statement by M.Bitton
Statement by Buidhe
I really don't want to be involved in this business, but while there is a lot of suboptimal behavior in this topic area, it amazes me some of what can be described as an "edit war" or sanctionable conduct. If these standards were enforced across the board to all editors regardless of their content contributions and all topic areas, I'm quite convinced that there would not be much of an encyclopedia. I realize that Arbcom tries to clinically separate content and conduct, but IMO one should not lose sight of the goal of the entire project. And while productive, good faith editors can be driven away from contributing due to battleground behavior and general nastiness, it's also true that they can be driven away by excessive rules and (the fear of) overzealous ban-hammers. I do believe that editors who actually work on creating an encyclopedia should be distinguished from people who just show up to revert or argue on talk pages. (t · c) buidhe 01:51, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Vanamonde
I saw several reports at AE that mentioned tag-teaming as a concern. I did not find anything actionable in the ones I investigated, but I agree with BK49 above that AE is less well-placed to investigate a sprawling multi-party dispute where the behavior of multiple editors may be of concern, than the behavior of a single editor. So I believe ARBCOM should look into this. In doing so, however, I encourage ARBCOM not to narrowly constrain which editors' behavior will be considered. AE is able to deal with the behavior of single editors. What ARBCOM needs to look at is whether the outcome of editors working together is actionably disruptive where any individual's actions in isolation may not be. I also encourage ARBCOM not to take a narrow view of what constitutes conduct. Mis-representing a source is, in my view, just as bad - and possibly worse for Wikipedia's long-term credibility - than any civility issue. It shouldn't be ignored just because it is easier to police language, though I am in no way suggesting that the expectations for collegial language be ignored. Vanamonde93 (talk) 17:48, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
- If this weren't very clear from my statement above, I don't think this ought to be handled by motion. The issues here aren't simple; they need to be disentangled with care. If civility and edit-warring were the only problems, we wouldn't need ARBCOM. We need an evidence phase, and for ARBCOM to dig into whether editors are editing within all the PAGs, not just the ones easy to assess. I also think it would be a mistake for ARBCOM to handle all the appeals. We shouldn't be spending the limited resource that is ARBCOM's time on appeals that aren't complicated. Vanamonde93 (talk) 21:03, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
- I fully endorse what Zero has to say about academic sourcing, but I disagree with the conclusion. There are editors here who are engaging constructively, and editors who aren't: and to determine who is in which category ARBCOM really needs to examine the content and the sourcing editors are discussing. There are previous cases - WP:ARBIRP and WP:ARBGWE come to mind - where ARBCOM needed to do something similar. Vanamonde93 (talk) 15:52, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
- The motions being considered may provide useful administrative tools in some cases, but to my mind they do not touch the heart of the problem. We are at ARCA because the disputes are too involved for AE to separate good-faith content dispute from bad-faith editing. I don't see how we can reach any sort of resolution here without a thorough examination of the conduct of the principal parties. Vanamonde93 (talk) 20:02, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
- Topic-wide enforced BRD is a bad idea. It is needed on some pages, and admins have the power to require it. Elsewhere, it just allows endless opportunities to stall constructive change. A hallmark of the ARBPIA disputes recently at AE is that editors were making reflexive reverts and not engaging substantively on talk pages. BRD cannot work when editors aren't discussing things in good faith. This is too much of a blunt instrument, and it does not get at the core issue brought here. Vanamonde93 (talk) 22:02, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Tryptofish
I generally avoid editing in this topic area, and my involvement in it has been fairly minimal. But the one instance when I did get involved with it ([31]), led me to find the editing environment disturbingly toxic, and not due to some simple problem with a small number of easily identified editors. Rather, it felt like a fairly large number of experienced editors, together, were acting in a way inconsistent with a CTOP subject. That strikes me as something that AE is poorly equipped to deal with. And it fits exactly with the concept that ArbCom should accept cases where the community has tried, but been unsuccessful, to resolve. So I recommend that ArbCom accept this case, and do so with a large number of named parties. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:02, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
- (Added after some other editors have kindly said that they agree with me; I don't know if they will agree with what follows.) ArbCom should know that the problems with "the usual suspects" that cannot be handled by AE generally do not fall along the expected POV fault-lines of Israeli versus Palestinian POVs, or antisemitism or Islamophobia. (I'm sure there are POV pushers like that, but they can be handled at AE.) If anything, there's a divide between different lines of Jewish thought, with the most problematic editors favoring WP:RS-compliant scholarly work by largely-Jewish academics, but doing so with a massive-scale disregard for the ArbCom principle of WP:BRIE, and some other editors (sometimes more crudely) finding such source material to be contrary to popular political opinion. In my experience, getting caught in the middle of that can be quite unpleasant. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:18, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
- About what ToBeFree said, I suspect that the information that would be made available to ArbCom via the case request page would look incredibly similar to what you already have here, so it would just be a bureaucratic waste of time to start over from scratch. And as for any aspersions that everyone should just be removed from the topic area, that's what the Evidence phase of a case is supposed to correct. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:30, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
- Adding to that: Although numerous editors are asking where the evidence is, for starting a full case with multiple parties, the correct answer is that evidence will be presented, and critically evaluated for whether it is valid or not, on the Evidence page of the case. ArbCom should make it clear that being listed as a named party is not a predetermination of guilt, something that perhaps will be more important here than in many other cases. You have multiple AE admins telling you that a full case with multiple parties is needed, and they have given you a reasonable list of potential parties (including admins who are well-positioned to give useful evidence). This is not the time to get stuck on quasi-legalistic procedural details. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:19, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
- Responding now to Harry Mitchell's comment, I'm worried that ArbCom is starting to over-think this. Focus on conduct, not on which sources are definitive. Have an Evidence page. Editors will either provide evidence of misconduct, or they won't, and ArbCom can tell the difference. You've got enough people telling you here that there are conduct problems that have overwhelmed AE that you can be confident that it won't just be a fishing expedition, but it would just result in ongoing disruption if ArbCom punts for now. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:38, 1 September 2024 (UTC)
- @Tryptofish This would be fine, but it doesn't do anything about the topic area in general, and I'm not convinced that AE can't handle that. Possibly not as drive-by allegations in a thread about another editor, but if a separate complaint is filed with clear evidence on each editor for admins to evaluate, I have confidence that credible complaints will result in action and vexatious ones will be rejected. But if admins would prefer to refer a complaint against a specific editor to ArbCom, I'd be happy to hear that case. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 22:50, 1 September 2024 (UTC)
- What I'm trying to convince ArbCom to do is about fixing the topic area in general. Among the multiple impasses in the discussion here on this request page is that AE admins are telling ArbCom that AE is not able to handle it, and you and maybe some other Arbs are saying the opposite. Handing the problem back to AE with an admonition to do it better is what will do nothing about the topic area. From my limited experience, bringing a case about one editor at a time to AE results in walls of text that include attempts to demonize the editor who first filed the AE report. After one such experience, I gave up on AE for this topic area, and I gave up on trying to edit in this topic area. (And I know better than to name names here on this request page, as opposed to on an eventual Evidence page.)
- I agree with you that AE can handle stuff like sockfarms and newish accounts that POV-push.
- I can appreciate that ArbCom must find it baffling that so many editors on this request page are asserting things about the real nature of the problem, in ways that contradict one another, and that cannot possibly all be true. If that means that ArbCom is having difficulty envisioning what such a sprawling case would consist of, and lead to, that reflects what a mess this is. But not knowing ahead of time what the outcome will be is a feature, not a bug, because obviously you shouldn't prejudge the case. Let the community give you evidence. And this is one case where you should not skip the workshop. Perhaps the evidence will end up surprising you. If so, again, that's a feature and not a bug.
- I'm going to propose the case scope right here: "Ongoing disruption in the Israel-Palestine topic area, with a particular emphasis on factors that interfere with the ability of WP:AE to handle the topic area, and on ways to solve those impediments". Use Red-tailed Hawk's parties list, and make clear that, because it's a long list, being on the list is not a presumption of wrongdoing. Then do these three things:
- Focus on conduct.
- Focus on conduct.
- Focus on conduct.
- I predict you'll end up finding that this has a lot less to do with POV than some editors are claiming. And you won't have to judge source material the way that it happened in the Polish Holocaust case. Personally, I expect to present some evidence in the form of:
- "Brief quote from a source." ([link to source]). "What an editor put on the page." ([diff]).
- (Although, in my case, it might not show what you expect now.) I'd suggest other editors, with more experience in the content area than I have, consider doing that, too. Arbs might want to click on those source links to check them for yourselves, but that's as far into source material as I expect you will need to go.
- But the community expects ArbCom to solve the intractable problems that the community has failed to solve. ArbCom knows that this is one of them. To drop the ball on the basis that the request process wasn't good enough would be failing the community. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:58, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
- I'm gratified that Barkeep49 agrees with my idea about the scope, but I want to caution against narrowing the parties list too much. Barkeep49's suggestion definitely leaves out editors who need to be examined. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:48, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
- @Tryptofish This would be fine, but it doesn't do anything about the topic area in general, and I'm not convinced that AE can't handle that. Possibly not as drive-by allegations in a thread about another editor, but if a separate complaint is filed with clear evidence on each editor for admins to evaluate, I have confidence that credible complaints will result in action and vexatious ones will be rejected. But if admins would prefer to refer a complaint against a specific editor to ArbCom, I'd be happy to hear that case. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 22:50, 1 September 2024 (UTC)
- I'm very skeptical that the proposed motions will have a positive effect on the topic area. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:52, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
- I really think that ArbCom has an obligation to deal with these problems via full cases, and not simply motions. But if the difficulties of creating a named parties list are getting in the way of a single, large case, then the idea posed by several other editors, of having one case about the topic area and how it affects AE (but not getting ArbCom into reviewing source material!), followed by a second case focusing on editor conduct, might well be the most practical way to accomplish it. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:45, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
- In response to the question about how to avoid making the topic-area case into a mudslinging contest, limit the named parties only to AE admins. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:56, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
- (Perhaps I'm posting here too much, but ArbCom's near-silence creates a vacuum.) ArbCom, don't get distracted by outside publications claiming bias in our content. It's special pleading, and ArbCom shouldn't end up with another Polish Holocaust case. We've got a problem, apparently, with a bottomless well of newish accounts that make life difficult for good-faith editors, which is something that AE should be able to handle. And I believe strongly that we have a problem with experienced editors who make it too difficult for AE to do its job. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:26, 18 September 2024 (UTC)
Statement by AirshipJungleman29
I echo the comments of Tryptofish, Vanamonde93 and SFR. The topic area features a large number of experienced editors who have, whether consciously or not, decided to ignore CTOP protocols. This not only has the effect of turning the entire topic into even more of a WP:BATTLEGROUND than it needs to be, but also negatively affects the experiences and habits of newer editors who follow the combative, actively hostile methods of those they look up to. Editors of all sides appear to have an unspoken agreement that civility shouldn't really matter when discussing such controversial subject matter (e.g. nableezy's statement above). This is unacceptable. I strongly endorse implementing the actions outlined by SFR as immediate remedies. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 12:51, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
- Nishidani, while I don't particularly appreciate being snidely labelled a pro-Israel complainer, I do appreciate an immediate example of "experienced editors . . turning the entire topic into even more of a WP:BATTLEGROUND than it needs to be". So—on balance, notwithstanding its intention—I thank you for your statement! ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 13:55, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Aquillion
I do urge ArbCom to particularly investigate the accusations of misrepresenting sources (an extremely serious one that takes time and effort to get to the bottom of) and of people taking inconsistent policy positions (a key component mentioned in WP:CIVILPOV, which is rarely enforced) as well as the battleground / aspersion / WP:AGF issues mentioned above. The edit-warring is important and is easy to see (hence why so many cases focus on it), but if that was enough to resolve this then we wouldn't be at ArbCom. The root cause is battleground mentalities and civil POV-pushing; misrepresenting sources and taking inconsistent policy positions point much more directly to that problem. (And, of course, I also urge people to present evidence to those things in the evidence phase, if it gets to that point, because ArbCom needs that - my past experience with cases like these is that both editors and ArbCom tend to focus on the "easy" aspects of WP:CIVIL and WP:EW, ignoring the underlying causes or more complex aspects.) --Aquillion (talk) 18:09, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
- I also want to second Loki's statement below that much of the problem is drive-by new editors or SPAs with few edits elsewhere - a lot of the other comments here have basically said "this is all about a few bad editors"; I don't think that's correct. In topic areas like this, where the disputes here reflect serious real-world divides, new / inexperienced users and blatant new SPAs are going to constantly flow into the topic area and require experienced editors who are willing to take the time and effort to keep an eye on a vast number of pages in order to maintain some semblance of balance or even just basic compliance with policy. We aren't going to solve the underlying A/I conflict on Wikipedia; the topic area is always going to be fraught. And the simple fact is that distinguishing between an experienced editor who eg. frequently reverts in a particular way because they're doing the necessary gruntwork of dealing with an endless tide of SPAs trying to blatantly add a particular bias an article, and an experienced editor who is performing WP:CIVILPOV-pushing themselves while WP:BITE-ing innocent new editors, is often not obvious. Part of the reason an ArbCom case is needed is because the community and AE aren't equipped for that; but this also means it's important to approach the case with an eye towards the drive-by / SPA problem, at least as context for the behavior of parties to the case, and not just "who are the bad people we can make go away in order to solve this." --Aquillion (talk) 18:37, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
Going over the motions, I don't think that any of them are likely to help. The core problems in the topic area are sockpuppetry, meatpuppetry, and canvassing, coupled with the scale and intensity of the underlying real-world conflict, which inevitably spills over into editing and leads to knock-on WP:CIVILPOV / WP:BATTLEGROUND issues; all of these are difficult to resolve in a single sweeping motion. But several of these are likely to actually make problems worse, not better.
- Motion 1, Appeals only to ArbCom doesn't really address any of the core problems; it isn't like revolving-door appeals are the problem here.
- Motion 2a / 2b, Word limits: Bludgeoning is certainly happening, so this is the one suggestion here that is at least aimed at what I'd consider the real problem... but it would probably be better to treat it as a WP:ROPE situation and just remove the people who are unable to stop themselves. Bludgeoning is a symptom of the real problem, not its cause. Also, it would make editing in the topic area even more stressful because you'd have to constantly keep track of your word count.
- Motion 3, Involved participants: This would reward sockpuppetry and canvassing, and silence contributions from editors with the most knowledge of the topic and the underlying dispute. Beyond that it's just not practical - would every editor only get to weigh in on one RFC in the topic, ever, after which they're involved and can never contribute to another? How would this even work? We'd rapidly run out of people willing to respond to RFCs (non-sockpuppets, anyway. I guess it could serve as a honey-trap for them but it's not worth it.)
- Motion 4, Enforced BRD: This would make editing in the topic area a glacial slog; it would also add a massive first-mover advantage to anyone who creates an article. Because the R in BRD can't be used to "uncreate" an article, someone could create a highly-biased article and then force extensive discussions on any attempt to balance it. And because events are moving quickly in the real world, this is a serious concern; there's constant new events that justify new articles, which often require fixes but which can't necessarily be summarily deleted. Beyond that, it's, again, not really aimed at the real problems here - revert-wars aren't the main issue (they're one of the things admins can easily spot and deal with.) I'm not a fan of enforced BRD in the best of times, but to the extent that it does work, it only really functions when there's a solid status quo and no need to update it quickly, which isn't the case during an active fast-moving real-world conflict like this one.
What we need are in-depth looks at individual editor conduct in order to catch sockpuppets / meatpuppets, identify canvassing, and remove civil POV-pushers. These things are hard, which is why they haven't been done yet, but sweeping from-above solutions aren't a substitute. --Aquillion (talk) 05:37, 18 September 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Swatjester
Tryptofish's experience here echoes mine. The tendentiousness, bludgeoning, and sealioning behavior from these battleground editors makes it exhausting and frustrating for non-battleground editors to participate. In any event, I see the "usual suspects" attempting to downplay or deny that there's any dispute, in contrast to the uninvolved parties saying, essentially: "It's you: you're the problem." I think that's rather telling. ⇒SWATJester Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat! 18:53, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Huldra: While my user page has remained remarkably free of vandalism I have received death threats and threats to my family, specifically targeting me as a Jew, through Wikipedia that were so bad that WMF Legal had to be involved at one point. I'm not the cat you're looking for; please keep me out of your metaphors, thanks. ⇒SWATJester Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat! 03:11, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Huldra: I appreciate the words written in support. With regard to the question of whether I think the "not so Israeli" side receives more threats than the Israeli side -- I don't know. I'm not sure how I *could* know as I wouldn't be privy to threats received in private much like you weren't privy to the ones I received. I'm also not sure why it matters -- neither side should be receiving death threats, but nobody "wins" by being more oppressed. As to my lack of having been targeted for on-wiki vandalism by one side or the other, as Nishidani pointed out, my "presence is very rare in the IP area" so not only would I have less visibility over other people receiving threats, logically I'm not going to be the target of abuse from that area either. And, I was considerably less active in editing from 2012 until 2023, which certainly bears on why my User Talk was not subjected to those kinds of attacks. Thus I believe I'm just not a good fit for your metaphor. ⇒SWATJester Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat! 23:40, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Nishidani: thank you for bringing up an example that I did not remember from nearly two decades ago of your atrocious behavior within this topic area, in which you became so infuriated that I denied an unblock request from you, that you went on a rant about how my military service in Iraq (miscategorizing me as a Marine, as well as not realizing I'd been out of the military for over a year at that point) categorically disqualified from participating in the Israel topic area; made the same argument about a British military admin; and then proceeded to imply that we were tag-team coordinating while admitting that you had no evidence whatsoever to make that aspersion and that it was unlikely to be true anyway, before accusing me of "partisan" and "political" motivations, while repeatedly threatening to quit the project if you didn't get your way. Are you *really* sure this is the example you want to bring up? You're making my point about "It's you: you're the problem" quite well for me. But sure, you never hold grudges... except for the one you've apparently held for 17 years. ⇒SWATJester Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat! 16:00, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
With regard to the proposed motions: I don't have confidence that they're going to fix the problem, but they're all pretty harmless so why not try them..... except Motion #3. That one seems quite dangerous to me, actually when read in conjunction with Motion #1. It creates the risk that an administrator who is not themselves involved, but who wishes to push their finger on the scale of the matter, could simply "knock out" any other admin (or non-admin editor) as being "involved" with the only recourse being (if Motion #1 also goes through) an Arbitration appeal. That seems highly unlikely to reduce the amount of heat on the topic, and I don't see how it leads to the goal of encouraging outside voices. If there's a concern over specific administrators taking actions while being involved, I think that should be raised individually on a case-by-case basis. ⇒SWATJester Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat! 00:28, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
- That said, Jeske+Barkeep's suggestion of splitting this into topic area and editor conduct halves I think merits further examination. Depending on how those two groupings relate to each other (e.g. if findings from the topic area can inform whether editor conduct issues exist), that could be a clean way of approaching at least part of this. It's at least the most workable suggestion I've seen thusfar. ⇒SWATJester Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat! 21:33, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Number 57
I edit around the edge of this topic area, focussing on Israeli politics and civil society, and have had the misfortune over the years to have ended up in disputes with editors pushing both anti-Israel and pro-Israel POV on articles where our paths corss. I very much welcome the suggestion that long-term tag-teaming, POV pushing and the ineffectiveness of current tools to stop this should be looked at. From my nearly 20 years' experience, the main issue has always been that there is a core group of 10-15 editors in this topic area (many of whom have been with us for well over a decade) who are primarily on Wikipedia to push their POV – anyone can look at their contribution histories and see that their contributions are primarily adding things that make their side look good/the other look bad and deleting information to the contrary; in discussions such as RMs, RfCs or AfDs, their stances are easily predicted based on their editing history. A further issue is that for most of the last two decades the two sides have been seriously mismatched in terms of numbers and one side has been consistently able to push their POV through weight of numbers, either by long-term tag teaming or by swinging poorly-attended discussions (and in my view the 30/500 restriction has actively worsened this situation by giving the long-term problematic editors an advantage). Number 57 19:28, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
- Re LokiTheLiar's comment below that "a lot of the worst behavior is from new-ish users", I would say that is only partially correct. These users tend to be the worst in terms of edit warring and other more flagrant violations of Wikipedia rules. However, IMO the real issue here is the fact that the topic area is dominated by a relatively small number of long-term editors who rarely break rules such as 3RR etc, but (as said above) are purely here to push their POV and support other members of their group in doing so. They have been allowed to do this for years – the question is whether the community sees this as perfectly fine, or whether it wants to do something about it (which IO think can only be achieved by a mass handout of topic bans). Number 57 19:21, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
- A response to Bluethricecreamman's comments: NOTAVOTE (an essay, not a rule) is not really relevant; closes against the majority of views expressed only tend to occur when there is a clear right/wrong (e.g. alignment with a certain policy or guideline). In this topic area, most things are arguable, and therefore the number of attendees do swing discussion outcomes – while this isn't an issue as a one-off, when it is many discussions over many years, it is a problem.
- Re my views on 30/500 – my concern is that it is a deterrent to new editors entering the topic sphere, which is one of the issues preventing an equalisation in the number of POV pushers on each side (as I've said above, I would rather they were all topic banned, but if Wikipedia is going to tolerate POV pushers in contentious topic areas, at least allow them to contribute in roughly equal numbers). I've been here nearly 20 years and the dominant personalities in this topic sphere have barely changed in the last ten. Number 57 20:34, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
- And re Nableezy's comment about me – disingenuous at best. For context, what I objected to was including the same paragraph of text about the legal status of Israeli settlements in the introduction of every single article on a settlement – my view was that everyone knows they are illegal and simply saying it is an Israeli settlement makes that clear. And for those who have been here long enough to remember, my RfA was disrupted by canvassing by pro-Israel editors who considered me to be a problem because I was doing things like removing articles on settlements from "in Israel" categories. Number 57 23:23, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
- Nableezy, I had been calling people in the topic area POV pushers for years before the discussion you reference and my issues with you also started well before then as well. While I have been accused of bias, it has come from both sides, and that gives me reassurance that I must be doing something right. I was once even accused of being a friend of Nishidani, which I'm not sure either of us would agree is the case. Number 57 00:36, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- For Huldra's information, unfortunately I have had numerous people wishing me death and other unpleasant things both on and off-wiki – most recently in June an IP left numerous edit summaries on articles saying I should be tortured, stabbed, beheaded, raped or "bullied to suicide". Number 57 00:35, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- Huldra, I don't think it's appropriate to get into an argument about who has suffered the most abuse, particularly using a single metric like talkpage redactions – the fact is that no-one should receive any level of abuse for editing Wikipedia. And also worth noting that I have also been impacted as a result of removing "in Israel" from Israeli settlements (when I removed them all from "in Israel" categories back in 2007). Number 57 23:57, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- For Huldra's information, unfortunately I have had numerous people wishing me death and other unpleasant things both on and off-wiki – most recently in June an IP left numerous edit summaries on articles saying I should be tortured, stabbed, beheaded, raped or "bullied to suicide". Number 57 00:35, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- Nableezy, I had been calling people in the topic area POV pushers for years before the discussion you reference and my issues with you also started well before then as well. While I have been accused of bias, it has come from both sides, and that gives me reassurance that I must be doing something right. I was once even accused of being a friend of Nishidani, which I'm not sure either of us would agree is the case. Number 57 00:36, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- And re Nableezy's comment about me – disingenuous at best. For context, what I objected to was including the same paragraph of text about the legal status of Israeli settlements in the introduction of every single article on a settlement – my view was that everyone knows they are illegal and simply saying it is an Israeli settlement makes that clear. And for those who have been here long enough to remember, my RfA was disrupted by canvassing by pro-Israel editors who considered me to be a problem because I was doing things like removing articles on settlements from "in Israel" categories. Number 57 23:23, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
Statement by The Kip
Not to sound repetitive, but I'll echo the comments of Tryptofish, AirshipJungleman29, and Swatjester. I dabbled in editing within the topic area some months back, but quickly opted to mostly stay away - since December or so, my related editing has only been in the Current Events portal/ITNC and various admin/arbitration noticeboards. This pivot was due to the absurd levels of incivility, condescension, POV-pushing, bludgeoning, edit-warring, hypocrisy, and virtually every other type of WP:BATTLEGROUND editing humanly possible, from a core group of editors that perennially show up to scream at each other in every discussion; there's a level of toxicity that just makes me want to ignore the area entirely. This BATTLEGROUND issue is only compounded by the fact that virtually all of the culprits are WP:UNBLOCKABLE - they wholly disregard WP policies and prior warnings/sanctions, as most ARBPIA sanctions for experienced editors have effectively amounted to slaps on the wrist. I'd also like to specifically emphasize the point made by Swatjester of I see the "usual suspects" attempting to downplay or deny that there's any dispute
, as from both sides of the POV-war, there's a near-constant attitude of "my side is doing nothing wrong, if we just sanctioned the [pro-Israeli/pro-Palestinian] POV-pushers everything would be fine," rather than any introspection on the absolutely toxic environment created by nearly all participants.
In short, I strongly endorse both an Arbcom case and SFR's suggested remedies. I will openly disclose that I openly endorse nuking the topic area's userbase via mass TBANs, as I don't think starting from scratch could make things any worse than they currently are - that said, I understand that's a rather draconian/heavy-handed solution. The Kip (contribs) 22:25, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
- With regards to the core group/"usual suspects" claim, I'd also like to link this chart gathered by @Thebiguglyalien: some months ago for a different arb case. Some of the more active users noted on that chart are now TBANned, but it still serves as a solid chunk of data for the mass-scale POV-warring in the area. The Kip (contribs) 22:37, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
- I'd also like to say I politely disagree with Tryptofish's assessment of the main area of conflict; while that is a dispute in the area, and as they say, a particularly nasty one, I think the main issue is indeed the Israeli vs Palestinian POV-warring. While AE could in theory deal with that, in practice it's been reluctant to for one reason or another - many of the experienced editors in question often straddle a line of problematic behavior that AE has seemed unwilling to definitively bring down the hammer on (hence my WP:UNBLOCKABLE concerns mentioned above), and that Arbcom may be more open to conclusively dealing with. As a result of AE's apparent higher threshold needed for experienced editors, things like civil POV-pushing, bludgeoning, weaponization of process, less "blatant" incivility, and so on are difficult to definitively sanction - you have to badly cross multiple lines to receive anything more than a logged warning that is almost always disregarded by the receiver in the long run.
- That's not even to mention the specific reasons why this case was primarily brought here (in my understanding), that being AE is mainly intended to be an A reporting B case forum. When the issue at hand is tag-teaming, multi-party edit warring, multi-party incivility, etc, AE's not too well-equipped to deal with a case where A and B want to report C, D, and E, except A and B have also been engaging in the reported behavior themselves, and F probably was too but wasn't brought to the case until later due to a variety of reasons. The Kip (contribs) 00:14, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
- @LokiTheLiar the problem is those new-ish users are fairly easily dealt with via AE, if they haven't already violated ECR. On the contrary, AE has shown itself to be reluctant to heavily sanction any heavily-experienced, long-term editors - see how some of those named in this case pretty much receive only logged warnings and/or minor things such as revert restrictions for substantial incivility, abuse of AE process, edit-warring, etc that would've gotten a newer user swiftly blocked. The Kip (contribs) 18:49, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
- After further reading of comments here from multiple users on either side of the POV-war they either deny exists or insist it's mainly/only the other side that's toxic, I'd like to reiterate:
from both sides of the POV-war, there's a near-constant attitude of "my side is doing nothing wrong, if we just sanctioned the [pro-Israeli/pro-Palestinian] POV-pushers everything would be fine," rather than any introspection on the absolutely toxic environment created by nearly all participants.
- WP:RGW, WP:BRIE, et al. This complete lack of introspection/acknowledgement that "hey, maybe I'm part of the problem too" is exactly why many in the area, if not all its experienced users, deserve sanctions. The Kip (contribs) 18:43, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
I also want to make something very clear, just so my position on the area doesn't get grouped in by one side with the other side of editors here and at large (which may already be happening):
- Are there more pro-Palestinian problematic experienced editors in the area than pro-Israeli ones? Yeah, I kinda feel like that's an objective fact at this point - as berchanhimez or the aforementioned Swatjester have stated, just look at the number of experienced editors showing up to insist they're not the problem, everyone else is/"
there is no war in Ba Sing Se
"/their behavior is justified/etc. - Does that mean that the many problematic pro-Israeli experienced editors are any less of a contributor to the toxicity, policy violations, et al in this area, or that they deserve any lesser sanctions? Not at all (case in point) - I support coming down on them as hard as I do the former group, including more than a few editors in this very discussion whom I won't name. Hell, from the linked motion, part of the reasons one side is smaller in the first place is because many of the problematic users from that side already got themselves TBANned.
Some previous and later commenters seem to think that my idea of "nuking the topic area" means only mass-TBANning the problematic people from the aforementioned side with more editors (see there's a near-constant attitude of "my side is doing nothing wrong, if we just sanctioned the [pro-Israeli/pro-Palestinian] POV-pushers everything would be fine
yet again), thereby artificially enforcing "neutrality" by simply evening the numbers. That is not my view - mine is that all of the problematic editors be banned, POV be damned. The Kip (contribs) 23:11, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- Also, with all due respect to @Sean.hoyland: - WP:SOCK will always be a problem in the area, nuke or not, but it's a problem that can be dealt with somewhat easily via SPI and sockpuppeteers having an almost comical tendency to accidentally out themselves. We shouldn't just put up with how much of a mess things currently are because there's the potential that it could get worse, and anyways, I disagree that the hypothetical "it could get really bad" is worse than the current reality of "it's a toxic disaster zone." The Kip (contribs) 23:25, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- Don't really think I can come up with anything new to add w/r/t the proposals, so I'll just second @Thebiguglyalien:. Good-faith ideas that I appreciate, but not sure if they'd fully deal with the core issues of the ARBPIA area. The Kip (contribs) 23:00, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Zanahary
It’s a small group of editors making this topic area hell for editors and a headache (I’d imagine) for administrators. I used to involve myself heavily in this topic area, and it’s the only such area where I’ve witnessed personal attacks, bullying, glaring dishonesty and hypocrisy in defense of violation of WP policy, and an apparent policy of assuming bad faith from anyone whom you believe you’ve sussed out to disagree with you go totally unpunished and be downright normalized—and it’s mostly coming from a handful of dominant editors. Something’s gotta give, and if that’s a rain of topic bans, then so be it. I see a few names listed that I believe do little more here than worsen the project. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 23:26, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Ravpapa
Once an active editor in this topic area, I have for the last few years assiduously eschewed any involvement. But I would like, nonetheless to add this comment:
I think we are all looking at the wrong thing. We are discussing editor behavior, but we should be looking at the quality of the articles in the topic area. And, I think we can all agree, the articles are abysmal. They are bloated with polemics, they magnify ephemeral new items into international crises that change the course of history, they are often so full or quotes and counterquotes that they are practically unintelligible.
Will massive topic bans make the articles better? I doubt it. With the Middle East conflict, we have exceeded the limits of the possible with a cooperative open editing model, and we need to think of some other way to approach articles in this area. --Ravpapa (talk) 05:47, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
Statement by SashiRolls
ArbCom should be aware that the table BilledMammal has offered as evidence above (Bludgeoning statistics) is deeply flawed. Efforts to encourage him to include a disclaimer noting that his "methodology" does not control for the presence of bludgeoning sockpuppets in discussions (for example) were rebuffed. As a single example, Kentucky Rain24 made about 48 comments on Talk:Zionism#Colonial project? enticing several editors into responding.
Prior to my comments on the talk page there was no methodology section. Now, BM has added some clarifications, but as a quick roll-over of that link shows, he is controlling what page visitors are aware of.
I very rarely edit in this topic area and only looked into this table due to past experience with Billed Mammal and Kentucky Rain24 (NoCal100) working in concert here. This is also why I learned that 18% of BilledMammal's edits to mainspace have been reverted, which might be worth looking into. -- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 11:07, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
- Just for the record... after further research I have been able to determine that it was the decision to set the cutoff at 20 comments rather than at 18 which kept Kentucky Rain24 (NoCal100) from appearing on BilledMammal's list. That said, and as others have already said on the talk page (or when it is was brought to ANI as an attack page), showing that people engaged in discussion, provided RS, debunked silly arguments, responded to sockpuppet provocation, etc. does not show that people "bludgeoned" anything. As the explanatory essay says: Participating fully isn't a bad thing. If there were any utility to a page which simply counts the number of times someone's signature appears on a page, I would ask him to rerun the data based on 18 comments in 4 discussions so that NoCal100 would appear in his list. -- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 02:03, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
- It is worth noting that the data BilledMammal has assembled here show conclusively that known sockpuppets have made more changes to PIA than any single named user.
- This was determined by calculating changes to PIA made by those Billed Mammal listed in red, which is a partial list of sockpuppets in that table. My mentioning this in the methodology section bothered BM, who immediately deleted the mention of these 15,802 changes as being a datum apparently unrelated to disruption in the topic area. -- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 12:38, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Domedtrix
I am relatively new to this topic area on Wikipedia, though I have read around the topic offline over a number of years.
I would like to echo the points of many editors above, that there is a culture of bludgeoning, tag teaming and tendentious editing, particularly of the Righting Great Wrongs variety. @BilledMammal illustrated this excellently here, though that is not to say the same behavious doesn't occur across more than the two editors singled out in that diff. Though I have seen tendentious editing multiple times, I am very reticent to call it out, in part because such accusations add more fuel to the fire.
What makes this topic particularly tricky to deal with, however, is not that editors in this space are typically new to the site (although as I know from editing in the WP:FOOTBALL space, any current event will draw large crowds), as is often the case when we see these types of issues. Instead, editors here are often incredibly experienced, incredibly knowledgeable of processes, and thus how to make a contentious change stick. This enables Wikilawyering on a scale that I've frankly not encountered anywhere else on Wikipedia in my history of making active edits, though I accept I am far below the median in this discussion by this metric. This, in combination with a format for resolving disputes that often seems to favour the most mobilised side, despite WP:VOTE expressly stating this shouldn't be a factor, has resulted in a topic area where, as @ABHammad observes, Wikipedia is out-of-step with a large number of the reliable sources that we rely on for other topics across Wikipedia. In my view, this amounts to an abuse of Wikipedia's voice for political ends.
The consensus process has broken down because too many experienced editors seem to have no interest in finding any consensus. I agree with @Zanahary that Badgering and Wikilawyering particularly scares off many that would like to approach the topic, so we're left with the same faces over and over again, and also the same problems. It is very rare in these interminable discussions that I see people give an iota. There is no end in sight, because it seems the desired state of the articles in the topic area from one (or each) 'side' of this conflict will likely not be content until 'perfection' is achieved.
We have been too slow to act here. It has been public knowledge for some time that Discord servers are being used to WP:CANVAS people with specific viewpoints. As this is done off-site, it is hard to know the scale of the impact, but that should not prevent the implementation of measures to guard against this risk.
The more I read in this topic area, the more disheartened I become by the state of our collective actions as editors, and the more I find myself aligning with @The_Kip's suggestion of nuking the topic area with mass topic bans. This is a WP:BATTLEGROUND, and it's hard to imagine whatever fills this void being worse than what is already here. As @Ravpapa stated, it's not like we're protecting much of value here - this process has resulted in articles of fairly poor quality, a result of incessent pointscoring within articles. --Domeditrix (talk) 11:58, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Number 57:
A response to Bluethricecreamman's comments: NOTAVOTE (an essay, not a rule) is not really relevant; closes against the majority of views expressed only tend to occur when there is a clear right/wrong (e.g. alignment with a certain policy or guideline). In this topic area, most things are arguable, and therefore the number of attendees do swing discussion outcomes – while this isn't an issue as a one-off, when it is many discussions over many years, it is a problem.
- History repeats itself. A contentious move is confirmed by @Amakuru:. The rationale? "
from a rough count, I see around 22 !votes endorsing the closure and 15 saying to overturn. I also don't see any kind of slam-dunk argument in the overturn !votes
". This is a repeating problem and is only leading to parties that are able to mobilise more effectively getting changes made. I'm not saying policy is being purposefully gamed here, but if it was, this is one way it might look. Tagging @Joe Roe: here as it would be rude not to, given I've mentioned one of their closes. For full disclosure, I opposed the original close. Domeditrix (talk) 22:09, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
Statement by LokiTheLiar
As an occasional participant in this topic area, I'd like to second Zero's suggestion that mass topic bans are not likely to be useful because a lot of the worst behavior is from new-ish users. ArbCom already got a taste of this earlier this year when it banned a bunch of pro-Israel meatpuppets.
Speaking of which, I'd also like to encourage ArbCom that, when it looks at editor behavior, to actually look at the behavior of every individual involved and not assume "both sides are at fault" without evidence. Loki (talk) 16:26, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
- I would also like to say that my assessment of the behavior of established editors is notably less negative than many other people here. I basically agree with nableezy: it's inherently a contentious topic area and so disagreements are common and will always be common. It's also unsurprising that many editors take editorial lines that lean towards one side or the other of the conflict: editors aren't required to have no POV, only articles are. None of this is that surprising to me for editing in a contentious topic area and I don't think that any of this per se is a problem.
- I do think it's a problem when editors edit war, or cross the bounds of civility, or bludgeon discussions, or bring your opponents to drama boards to try to get them removed from the topic area, or try to push a POV over what reliable sources support. And definitely some of that has been happening here, and I encourage ArbCom to look at the behavior of individual editors in this topic area. But I don't think this stuff coming from established editors is a systemic issue over and above the inherent fact that the Israel/Palestine conflict just is a contentious topic. It's fine to not want to edit in a contentious topic area but I don't think that a topic area being intimidating to edit in is by itself an issue. Loki (talk) 19:54, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Thebiguglyalien
Given the pushback from regulars in this area, I'll add one more voice from someone who's only edited at the edge of the topic area and have felt dissuaded from contributing further. I can't say it better than Swatjester: "'It's you: you're the problem'". Whatever excuses the entrenched editors might have, their behavior is the worst of any topic area on Wikipedia. Everyone here knows which users I'm talking about and which sides they fall on, but we have to pretend we don't so as not to be accused of casting aspersions. I see an Arbcom case as the only way to turn this years-old "open secret" into something actionable.
The habit of always !voting in a way that benefits the same nation is a problem, and it becomes obvious when someone uses one reasoning to come to one conclusion but then uses the opposite reasoning when it's the other side up for discussion. This is commonly answered with the contradictory ideas that "they're the POV pushers, our side is just correct" and that "users are allowed to have their own POV", with the latter suggesting that it's okay to let POV dictate editing and !voting instead of following policies and sources. Call it battleground, tag-teaming, CPUSH, whatever you like, but in my opinion it should be a major focus when considering whether the editors in this area are here to build a neutral encyclopedia.
Contrary to what other statements here are arguing, I believe there are legitimate issues about editors who are only here to edit PIA. This is a strong indicator of WP:ACTIVIST/WP:SPA/WP:NOTHERE style editing, even when they have high edit counts or several years of experience. This will always be a contentious topic, but it is possible to prioritize the sources over your own beliefs when editing in contentious topics. The current regulars have forced out anyone who might be willing to do this.
- I like ScottishFinnishRaddish's suggestion that everyone who participated in an ARBPIA AE discussion since last October be considered involved.
- I agree with Ravpapa's points about low article quality, but these issues plague most current events articles (another area that could use cleanup, but it's not analogous to PIA).
- BilledMammal's list does produce some of the most active editors, and while there's plausibly a strong correlation, it doesn't prove bludgeoning on its own.
- Not only do I agree with The Kip and Zanahary that a significant number of topic bans should be on the table, but such bans are the bare minimum of what's necessary. At this point, topic bans aren't a drastic last resort. They're the first step of a slow, painful remedy.
Thebiguglyalien (talk) 22:47, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
In response to the link provided by Nableezy: a reminder that WikiProjects cannot enforce their local consensus on articles. Conclusions reached by a WikiProject are recognized as essays. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 23:46, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
HJ Mitchell, replying more so to you because you've provided the strongest argument against my own and have convinced me to some degree. The most critical issue, in my opinion, is tag-teaming. Which regular editors in the area are working together to !vote lockstep, always in a way that favors the same cause? Especially when they apply different rationales depending on which side benefits (articles making Israel look bad must always be deleted and making Palestine look bad must always be kept, or vise versa, even if they have the same merits).
Your definition of "behaving tendentiously" would be a huge step in the right direction, but we'd need to flesh it out in a way that might be impossible. I've raised the issue at AE before, but no one could provide an example of what diffs are necessary to demonstrate this. Even though—if we all choose not to insult each other's intelligence—it's public knowledge who the most prominent tag-teamers are.
Regarding the academic "baseline", I don't believe there is one on most aspects. The controversy and disagreement are inherent to the subject area, including academia and history studies. The standard to declare something as a baseline fact should be overwhelming agreement in reliable sources. People who assert academic consensus on a subjective controversial topic are at best victims of confirmation bias and at worst maliciously misrepresenting. The people who insist that it's "correct vs incorrect" as opposed to "pro-Israel vs pro-Palestine" should be given additional scrutiny here.
Encouraging people to avoid the use of news media and primary reporting in articles on current events
is something of a pet cause of mine in general (that I've elaborated upon in an essay), and such avoidance will almost always produce better results.
I see the sockpuppetry issue to be a red herring. That's not to say it's not a huge problem, but the current focus is established users, and there are factors that make this more urgent:
- The opinions of less established accounts are taken less seriously in discussions relative to more experienced users (this probably should be the case, but that just means it's all the more important that experienced users are above reproach on POV issues).
- ECR significantly increases the investment to create sockpuppets.
- ECR makes it easy to see who's acting in bad faith via EC gaming.
- Once discovered, a sockpuppet account is automatically blocked.
- AE can't address coordinated action nearly as well as it can address individual problem users (which is why we're here).
- Administrators don't give a second thought to blocking or tbanning newbies, while they often shrink away from sanctioning entrenched editors who do much worse much more often.
- Any administrator with the resolve to take action (or even mention the possibility) is hounded and abused by the user's tag-team buddies.
To stretch the cat analogy that's been raised, we're trying to build a home for mice. We've known the dangers of cats for a long time. Keeping entrenched editors to protect us from socks and newbies is like keeping cats to protect the mice from kittens. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 21:24, 1 September 2024 (UTC)
I appreciate that HJ Mitchell is doing what we elected him to do and trying to get solve the problem. With that said, I'm also not a fan of these proposals. They seem geared toward the "loud" disruption, when the accusations of "quiet" disruption are why it got referred to Arbcom. Just a few days ago, Arbcom reaffirmed Wikipedia:Arbitration/Index/Principles#Presumption of coordination. I would like to see a case in which the most frequent participants in the area are scrutinized, and that this will be proposed as a principle to guide any and all remedies. The repeated insistence from frequent participants that only newbies and socks are the problem has further convinced me that this is necessary. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 17:23, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
Statement by xDanielx
Number 57's point gets at the heart of the issue: the two sides have been seriously mismatched in terms of numbers
. This often leads to situations where there's an apparent consensus which goes against (the natural or customary interpretation of) our content policies. The result is passionate edit warring, with one side righteously enforcing consensus, and the other righteously enforcing content policies.
The Zionism edit war covered at AE is one example - there's an apparent consensus to state in wikivoice, in the first sentence, that Zionism is colonization. It's frankly very hard to see how such an unequivocal statement could comply with NPOV, given the long list of scholars who take issue with the characterization. But it's difficult to enforce policies against a majority, and four editors have been brought to AE for attempts to do, with another threatened.
Another example is Gaza genocide. If that isn't a WP:POVNAME, I don't know what is. Some editors argued that titles do not imply statements, effectively saying that POV names do not exist. Such arguments tend to be invoked selectively. The move received significant press ([32], [33], [34], [35], etc), damaging Wikipedia's credibility.
I don't think word count limits would help. A bright-line rule against bludgeoning might help avoid lengthy discussions filled with redundancies, but that isn't the core issue. Enforcing behavioral policies more rigorously might help attract a few more neutral editors. The real solution would be to warn or sanction editors who repeatedly promote unreasonable or inconsistent interpretations of content policies, but of course that's difficult since such policy matters aren't black and white. — xDanielx T/C\R 01:06, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
Suggestion for Radical Change by Ravpapa
So long as we remain in the realm of editor behavioral change, we will get nowhere. What is required is structural change. In this topic area, we need to abandon the open consensual editing model that has been at the heart of Wikipedia since its inception. Here is what I propose that we do:
We recruit a committee of five to ten senior editors, who have never edited in the topic area, who have no identifiable bias, and who are equally unacceptable to both sides. Only members of this committee will be allowed to edit in the topic area.
The committee will be charged with reviewing the entire corpus of Middle East articles, and making any editorial and structural changes that they see fit, including:
- deleting duplicate articles about the same topic, or merging articles closely related.
- drastically trimming down articles of marginal importance that have become bloated with polemics.
- rewriting main articles to present conflicting views in a concise and intelligible way.
The committee should look not only at individual articles, but at the corpus in its entirety, thinking creatively about the best way to present information. I give examples and suggest such structural changes in my essay User:Ravpapa/The Politicization of Wikipedia, which I wrote 15 years ago but is just as relevant today as then.
The committee will have the power to delete, merge and rename articles by consensus within their own group, without having to go through the regular article deletion. merge or rename processes. Anyone can, of course, comment on the talk page and make suggestions. But only the committee can actually edit. This proposal preserves the heart of the consensual editing model (though not strictly open), but eliminates the possibility for contentious editing.
It is a huge task. I am not volunteering. --Ravpapa (talk) 05:12, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Black Kite
A PIA5 case has the possibility to go completely FUBAR if it attempts to litigate the entirety of the topic area and regular editors in those areas. This is a stupidly contentious topic and I suspect if we looked at the complete records of every regular editor a well-meaning member of ArbCom could probably go all Portals on us and find a spurious reason to ban them. No, my idea would be to concentrate on the three areas which appear to causing the most issues at the moment.
- Sub-5000-edit accounts which are basically SPAs on the PIA area, some of which will inevitably be socks but even if they're not are equally disruptive
- Those attempting to weaponise AE by bringing multiple threads against ideological enemies
- Those holding up progress by causing endless circular arguments on talk pages (I'm not going to say "bludgeoning" because people may look at BilledMammal's subpage which IMO has a wildly flawed methodology for assessing this). A lot of these people are, again, new-ish accounts.
Also, per Rosguill below. That particular shambles of an RfC is quite revealing. Black Kite (talk) 14:21, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Rosguill
Based on my vantage point of having only really participated in I/P topics by way of RSN and AE discussions, I am perplexed by various assertions made in this clarification request. Reading through discussions like the recent ADL RfC, the recent Al-Jazeera RfC, a recent discussion of +972 a recent discussion of general Israeli sources, there is a consistent group of editors that repeatedly accuse a list of sources they have deemed to be "anti-Israel" while also defending-ad-bludgeon advocacy sources like the ADL and categorically defining Israeli news media as reliable. These discussions do not display the converse: there is no bloc of editors that rejects Israeli sources out of hand while categorically insisting that pro-Palestinian sources are reliable (for further evidence, see the recent Electronic Intifada RfC). We do occasionally see editors pop up who reject Israeli sources out of hand on talk pages (usually alongside US and potentially even European sources), but I don't see anyone named in this report that exhibits this behavior. Such editors are shown the door. signed, Rosguill talk 14:24, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Huldra
- PROBLEM: the cat-herding admins cannot manage herding all the cats
- Solution: slaughter all the cats (<- I love cats, and would never support this option!)
- Problem solved
- alternative solution: better cat-herders, or better cat-herding rules, are apparently not on the table, Huldra (talk) 18:49, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- And then we have cat-herders who likes to play as a cat, at times,
- As for Number 57 view: "the 30/500 restriction has actively worsened this situation by giving the long-term problematic editors an advantage" As an editor who has been "credited" by off-wiki web-sites and blogs with bringing about this rule, I can say: "credit where credit is due", namely with the more unhinged of Israels' supporters. It was their incessant rape- and murder- threats which brought about this policy. AFAIK, Number 57 has never been threatened with murder for editing wiki, or seeing his loved ones being raped (And I am happy -and relieved- he hasn't!), but I wish he would try to imagine how he would have felt.
- As for Number 57 view: "is a core group of 10-15 editors in this topic area (many of whom have been with us for well over a decade) who are primarily on Wikipedia to push their POV I could also easily name such a group – but it would prabably be a totally different group from the one (I guess) Number 57 has in mind,
- I agree fully with Zero0000's asseccment: "There is a reason why many editors who enter the I/P area quickly decide that it is toxic and controlled by a cabal. It's because they come along armed with nothing except strong political opinions and a few newspaper articles, and don't like it when they meet experienced editors familiar with the vast academic literature. The small fraction of new editors who arrive with genuine knowledge of the topic have a much better time of it", I have met people with PhDs in the I/P-area, who knows far, far less about the history of the area, than some of my fellow wiki-editors.
- As for Guerillero' wish for better cat-herding rules; I was thinking of something like: scratch another cat's face: 1 month's automatic topic-ban. Of course "scratch another cat's face" has to be minutely defined ;/, I didn' think I scratched a cat's face here, but that cat apparently disagreed! Huldra (talk) 20:07, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
- Also, some cats have been more attacked than most, [36], [37],[38],[39], while others have managed to get by with hardly a single scratch; [40] [41] (and no: that isn't because our editing is that bad: some of the very worst abuse I have suffered was after I removed that the Western Wall was "In Israel" (It isn't, according to the International community.) Huldra (talk) 22:24, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
- Not to mention that some cats are the subject of off-wiki harassment and outing-attempts, while others are not. I cannot recall in all my years here that there has been a single attack-page aimed at the pro-Israeli editors, while there have been at least half a dozen attacking those editor not deemed pro-Israeli enough. And outing: apparently you will "help the state of Israel" if you make public my RN. Gosh, this cat had no idea that she was that important! Oh well, on the internet nobody knows you're a ......dog, Huldra (talk) 23:17, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
- User:Number 57 and User:Swatjester say they have received death treaths, and I have no reason to disbelieve them, and I am very sorry they have done so, BUT: Do you deny that the threats against "the-not-so-pro-Israli"-editors is far greater than against the "pro-israeli" editors? After all, your talk-pages are blissfully clean of Wikipedia:RD2 and Wikipedia:RD3, after nearly 20 years each for both of you.
- To re-iterate: some of the worst abuse I have recieved is over removing "in Israel" from places which have been occupied by Israel since 1967. This should have been totally uncontroversial, but apparently isn't. Likewise, I sometimes have to undo edits which place Arab cities in Israel in "Palestine"[42] others do so rutinely as well, [43][44]. All of these edits should have been uncontroversial. But I know that when I do the former (ie.removing "in Israel" from places which have been occupied by Israel since 1967) I can expect a tsunami of insults and threats, while when I do the latter (ie: placing Arab cities in Israel), I have *never* recieved any such reaction. Why this difference, I wonder?cheers, Huldra (talk) 22:58, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
Some comments after reading some of the other comment here:
- User:Thebiguglyalien: "Once discovered, a sockpuppet account is automatically blocked" No, they are not. I am 100% sure that a Tombah-sock is active at present, but he is still unblocked. And Nocal works in the tech/computer-industry and knows every trick in the book to avoid detection.
- " Keeping entrenched editors to protect us from socks and newbies is like keeping cats to protect the mice from kittens" I have no idea what this is supposed to mean.
- User:xDanielx: "...s Gaza genocide. If that isn't a WP:POVNAME, I don't know what is." That is the problem; you think you know "the Truth", but you obviously haven't read what genocide scholars say. And the scholars call it a genocide. I was once accused by a off-wiki website of "undermining the factual history of Israel on Wikipedia by creating false documentation that shows nearly 400 Arab villages were allegedly depopulated by Jews and Israel." Well, guess what: even Israeli scholars agreee that it was Jewish military groups/IDF that stood for the vast majority of the depopulation.
- AFAIK: only pro-Israeli groups actively recruits wp-editors, they have done so for at least 15 years, they come to wp. with lots of opinions and zero knowledge of scholarly work. And are bitterly dissapointed when they cannot convince others.
- User:Jehochman: I have given no such advice!!!!! Quite the opposite! Huldra (talk) 00:10, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- Try clarifying the first few lines. I obviously got the wrong impression. Jehochman Talk 00:11, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Arkon
Seeing many comments that should be saved for the Arb case over the last few days. Is there some threshold that needs to be passed before this case is opened? Arkon (talk) 20:56, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
- Closing in on two weeks since I commented the above, sheesh. Arkon (talk) 21:55, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
- lol. But not really. Arkon (talk) 05:53, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Shushugah
- Enforcement in this area has been largely ineffective. The net result is a hostile/toxic environment. Remaining editors face a dilemma to either disengage (probably the healthier option) or furiously engage (also bringing the worst side of all parties involved). This does not mean someone who furiously engages is necessarily disruptive. We should be careful not to draw a false equivalence between the two. Especially when one side focuses on policy based arguments, namely summarizing inclusively pro Israeli and Palestinian sources while other sides are pushing for singular/nationalist narratives.
- Cases are brought to ArbCom or ANI after obvious escalations, however what we need is stronger focus on preventive measures over enforcement after the fact.
- On a practical note, reducing the ability of individual editors to dominate a conversation by instituting either a limit on word count or percentage, would allow more voices to sustainably opine with succint policy based arguments without having to compete for eyeball attention and save clerks more time when closing a discussion. More clerks would be motivated to join in too potentially.
- The other thing that remains unacceptable is the presentation by some editors in this ArbCom request and general discussions as POV pushing by two sides, when the reality is it is POV pushing versus critically summarizing the state of different reliable sources. Having a much stricter enforcement of WP:SOAPBOX would clean up discussions.
- These remedies would be easier to resolve than the (possible) allegations of tag-teaming and or gamification of Wikipedia which will continue to be contested and or repeatedly brought here ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 22:15, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
- [@CaptainEek] On one hand, if this becomes PIA5, more people would have given commented (if they wished) and existing editors might have presented evidence differently. On the other hand, a lot of time is wasted going in circular questions about the correct forum, when many of the issues raised are the same. If it is possible to refactor/raise a prepared PIA5 instead of starting from scratch, I would support a separate venue. Everyone should have a fair chance to bring input, but for most editors (myself included) ARCA is incredibly confusing and bureaucratic. ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 17:11, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
Statement by berchanhimez
I haven't wanted to comment here because I feel that others are saying what I would have to say. But I feel it needs to be stressed that some editors are continuing to blatantly ignore policies and guidelines even in this request which concerns such behaviors. To quote The whole point of RSN deliberations, and you engage in them often, is to distinguish between narrow and wide bias in newspapers. A narrow bias doesn't imperil the general reliability of a source: a wide bias can lead to deprecation.
This flat out contradicts the applicable PAG pages of WP:BIASED and WP:NPOV § Bias in sources. However, Nishidani is correct that a wide bias can lead to deprecation
- I am unsure if this has actually happened (and if it has whether it's happened in the Israel-Palestine subject area), but it only takes a quick look through contentious topics on RSN to see that editors are engaging in civil POV pushing (and sometimes uncivil) through attempting to deprecate sources that have a bias towards opinions they disagree with. This is but one example of the experienced editors blatantly admitting to ignoring PAGs when they disagree with the inevitable outcome of them.
This gets at the root cause of the issues in this (and likely other) contentious topics. Those editors with experience have "practice" in using PAGs in discussions - which is great as discussions should be based on how to apply our PAGs to specific disputes. However, their experience also means they are good at abusing PAGs to further their point of view and ensure Wikipedia reflects what they think is "right". To be clear, I am not denying that contentious topics are likely to have more sockpuppetry or newer editors in the topic areas than a "tame" subject would. That does not, however, justify cherrypicking PAGs that support one side, and ignoring arguments to the contrary - and it especially does not justify bludgeoning discussions so that the closer has no choice but to find those arguments "stronger" simply because people either tire out of refuting the claims, tire out of pointing out the failures of the arguments made, or are threatened with administrative action by those who know they can be quick to take complaints to friends who are administrators or boards like AE without threat to themselves no matter what they did to fan the flames. Funnily enough, when one of these editors has their conduct called out, the others tend to show up and bludgeon that discussion - through deflecting focus on to the editor making the report or those supporting it, through calling into questions the motives of editors who are simply trying to remove bad behavior from the topic area, and ultimately through derailing any chance that the behavior is addressed. That is why this is back at ArbCom after what, 4 prior cases? And of course, many of the problematic experienced editors have already shown up to this request to bludgeon here with chants of "there is no war in Ba Sing Se" over, and over, and over again to try and deflect from and/or justify their own behavior.
A contentious topic does not need to have more heat than light in any discussion. I support this case being opened with a wide reaching list of parties - to the point that I would not feel it unreasonable for people like myself, whose editing in the area is limited to participation in a small number of discussions with a small number of comments. However, the root cause of these problems isn't the sockpuppetry (where it occurs), it isn't those who ask others to respond to their PAG based arguments, it isn't even bludgeoning or incivility by "one side". The problem is that experienced editors here (as elsewhere on the internet) tend to gravitate towards the same side, and via strength in numbers can continue to make systemic bias worse, silence opposition/alternative points of view, and ultimately control the topic area. One need only look at the significant number of experienced editors who are not a part of the "in group" who've commented here that they avoid this topic area because they have no hope of participating constructively against the other experienced editors - whether they're working in coordination or simply independently being disruptive. As such, I see the only solution being the indefinite removal (topic ban - not warning) of any and all experienced editors who have, even just once, turned the heat up.
There are more than enough editors who, if those whose only response to disagreement is to turn up the heat are removed, would be willing to contribute in the topic area to keep the encyclopedia running. The result of this case will determine whether I myself will feel like my contributions are welcomed in the topic area and that I won't have to spend time fighting bludgeoning from another side with no hopes of having my points ever refuted.
- Since this ARCA has been opened, there has been at least two more AE requests related to this topic area. ArbCom would do good to actually state their intentions on this issue - either open a case (or voice your intention to do so more clearly) so that AE admins can focus on other topic areas (outside obvious socks/SPAs/etc that AE can continue to handle), or resolve the issues in this topic area by some other means. As it stands, editors on the side with more experienced editors can continue to weaponize AE to remove editors they don't like from the topic area since AE admins feel obligated to continue reviewing reports with what ideally should be an impending case - and as they've said multiple times, AE isn't the right place nor equipped to handle reports regarding conduct that crosses over a plethora of editors. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 01:07, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
- I see all motions being proposed as merely kicking the can down the road. The problems in this topic area are those like Levivich who have taken to making threats (as Barkeep points out) to other editors because they seem to feel they're immune to sanctions. By resolving this without any sanctions against the editors making this topic area contentious, that is only going to give those editors more reason to continue their disruption and "civil" POV pushing behaviors. A full case, with evidence, should be opened. If after the full case, ArbCom still feels those motions are the best way to resolve this, well fine. But an ARCA is not the place to expect to be given all the evidence, so we will just end up with a case eventually. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 00:50, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
- I'm going to presume the evidence posted by Amayorov was something that would be best suited as private evidence in an ArbCom case. This is even more reason that a case should be opened rather than trying to dispense with this by motion(s). -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 06:18, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Amakuru
I don't have a huge amount to say about the general question here, although I do gravitate towards Buidhe's point of view above... while this is clearly a hugely emotive and contentious topic area for many and of course there are numerous disputes, my from-a-distance perspective is that conduct is actually a lot better than you might expect. While many editors fall into one of two "camps", the WP principles of compromise, respecting others and objective analysis still seem to be present in many debates. I'd urge ArbCom to be extremely cautious about imposing too many editing restrictions or topic bans in this area, on either side of the debate, I think that would lead to less good coverage of the subject rather than more.
Anyway, I'm primarily commenting here because I was mentioned above by Domeditrix, seemingly criticising my close of the move review for the Gaza genocide article. I'd like to know what I was supposed to do differently in that instance? Perhaps it could have instead been a "no consensus" close, but the effect of endorsing the RM close would have been the same. It's been long-established that consensus building on Wikipedia takes place by viewing comments through the lens of policy, but equally closers almost always find consensus for the majority vote if there isn't a lot to choose between the strength of arguments. Bluntly, there isn't an objective policy that says Gaza genocide is a disallowed title, the closer of the original RM found consensus for that title, and many seasoned editors agreed. If Domeditrix and others think we should be evaluating discussions in a fundamentally different way from how we've historically done so, for example by not counting votes at all, then they need to run that by the community and get some sort of procedural update in place so we know exactly how to assess these things. — Amakuru (talk) 10:52, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Doug Weller
I'm not here to comment on the case but to draw attention to a blog by a probably banned editor concerning this case and attacking a number of the editors here, specifically Number 57, Nableezy, Nishidani, Huldra, Black Kite, Sean.hoyland and Rosguill.[45] It also says "Only a technique called "semi-protection" (prohibiting people not logged in from editing) can stop crazy people from coming onto user pages and threatening editors. Huldra's Wikipedia user pages are not semi-protected." Doug Weller talk 14:54, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Jéské Couriano
Looking at my current group of AE archives (April 2024 - present)[a], of 75 threads (discounting the two duplicates) 38 of them are PIA-related. And of 94 threads from Oct. 2023 (and the Re'im massacre) to this past March, 41 of them are PIA related.
I get the sense that the ongoing Israel-Hamas war is a major driver of the increased (mis)conduct in the area given its grossly outsized invocation at AE over the past ten months, and while I do agree that PIA5 is all but necessary at this point, I would handle it as a separate matter to this, akin to COL/AP2. Have one case to handle the editor conduct issues highlighted at the AE thread here (focusing on individuals) and then a second one to address the climate in the topic area writ large (focusing on policy changes to the topic). Trying to conflate the two a la The Omnibus Case is just going to be a bigger timesink than just doing them separately. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v threads critiques 17:39, 31 August 2024 (UTC)
- @HJ Mitchell: The Arab-Israeli conflict's Arbitration history well predates the first PIA case; PIA1 is simply the first time ArbCom turned its gaze on the situation as a whole rather than just hitting individual editors only. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v threads critiques 22:01, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
Notes
- ^ This figure does not count the (incomplete) Archive 339, nor does it count any unarchived threads at Enforcement, including the one referred here
Statement by RAN1
Speaking of the AE request about האופה, there's also the AE request about PeleYoetz which was closed as moot because of this referral (diff), so that should be reviewed too. RAN1 (talk) 09:20, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Hydrangeans
Without the context, I'm not convinced BilledMammal's User:BilledMammal/ARBPIA_RM_statistics page is on its own illuminating. Contributing to discussions about moving articles intersects with the policy on titling articles which includes all sort of guidance about using a common name, neutrally naming articles with the exception of non-neutral common names, etc., and deciding how to note-vote ought to involve basing one's decision on what sources say. Without that context, it's presuming too much to look at information presented in this manner and conclude something about an editor's "pro"-ness of X or Y or what have you, which is implicitly assuming editors are contributing to those move discussions based on something like whims rather than on sources and PAGs. Looking at User:BilledMammal/ARBPIA_RM_statistics, if I see that editor A supported move B for an article about C, it feels a bit superficial for me to think, 'aha, editor A is a pro-C partisan' instead of thinking, 'I had better immerse myself in the relevant literature and see if I agree that the secondary sources support move B for topic C'. To the extent that POV pushing is the animating concern of this referral, it rather matters that we know what perspective is expressed by the highest quality sources. Otherwise we're just going by feel and will have every chance of producing a false balance.
And all that, the original request for enforcement is practically forgotten. Like, it's been two weeks. Seems like all that's left to do is dismiss in light of האופה not editing since the report. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 16:48, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Figureofnine
More needs to be done to improve the civility of the I/P pages, because the current atmosphere in these pages is simply unacceptable. Editors and administrators both too often disregard that civility is not a suggestion, not a behavioral guideline, but is policy. Last month I proposed the revival of an intermediary civility board at the Village Pump. [46] The discussion is useful less for the particulars of whether such a board is useful than it is for the cross-section of attitudes on display, which vary from concern to not giving a damn about civility. Note also that some of the most active I/P editors involved in this discussion participated there and aired their views on the subject of civility.
Civility simply is not taken seriously anymore anywhere in the project, is lackadaisically and usually not enforced at all, and is a sad memory in the I/P pages. WP:CIVIL needs to be strictly enforced especially in contentious topic areas. If editors cannot show respect for other editors they should not be allowed to edit there. Administrators need to act and I believe that Arbcom has a responsibility in this area as well. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 23:13, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
Motions: The recent motions are well-intentioned efforts to deal with the issues presented by this situation without dealing with the editors involved. While that approach is tempting and understandable, I believe that, as some have pointed out, that they might make things worse, promote tag-teaming and offsite canvassing, and constitute a failure to act if not worse. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 13:39, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
- Specific views on the motions:
1. Appeals only to Arbcom: I see some merit to this. It can prevent bludgeoning of administrators who venture into the subject area.
2. Word limits: On the surface it seems to address the problem that we face of repetitive discussions and "IDONTHEARTHAT" bad faith hounding that can drag out discussions. But it is a process answer to a behavior issue.
3. Excluding involved participants. Again, a process answer to an editor behavior issues. Not all involved editors are creating problems, tag-teaming and so on. This "throws out the baby with the bathwater."
4. "Enforced BRD" Another process answer to an editor behavior issue, and I don't believe that it would have any positive impact on the subject area whatosever.
Biased by default? I think that Amayorov has come up with an intriguing solution below: label the articles in this and other contentious topic areas as biased and unbalanced by default, "explicitly mark them as such to readers with an appropriate banner," and so on. I agree insofar as this topic area is concerned. Others, I do not know.
We are here because of a widespread belief, both on and off-wiki, that these articles are biased. Let's tell the public: "In this subject area, neutrality is not a given. Enter at your own risk." I think that would restore faith in the project that many do not have, or have lost. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 22:35, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
Levivich: Yes, one can argue that all articles in controversial subject areas will be viewed as biased by both sides of the controversies. That is certainly true with these articles. It is also true that these articles have the potential for bringing the project into disrepute. Is an article too pro-X? Is it too pro-Y? Is there canvassing by editors for X? Is there canvassing by editors for Y? Let's not be naive or sanguine. Canvassing is the elephant in the room. There is canvassing, without a doubt, by all parties in this and other controversial topic areas no matter what they are, in which the off-wiki fighting is intense and Wikipedia is just one area in a wide-ranging conflict. Wikipedia is not equipped to deal with such situations adequately. Hell we can't even keep the discussions civil. We have failed at that. Administrators have failed. Arbcom has failed. We, the editors, have failed. We need to admit that we haven't done a good job of keeping these articles free of bias. We need to concede that in these subject areas we cannot prevent bias from creeping into and even overwhelming articles. We need to say that loud and clear, without being mealy-mouthed or equivocal. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 13:03, 18 September 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Amayorov
No sure if this has been raised already, but there is evidence circulating online of potential WP:TAGTEAMing and WP:CANVASSing by bad-faith editors from both sides. (Redacted) Here’s one example. Amayorov (talk) 01:01, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
- The sources I previously posted, and which have since been redacted, reported that a group of editors had been coordinating using third-party tools (e.g. Discord) to fight “on the Wikipedia front the information battle for truth, peace and justice.” According to the articles, their activity included publishing how-to videos, organizing edits, and compiling lists of "work in progress" pages they aimed to modify.
- As one published material that I referenced put it, "Wikipedia is not just an online encyclopedia. It’s a battleground for narratives." Amayorov (talk) 20:31, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
A naive proposal: Would it be useful to treat all articles on specific contentious topics as biased and unbalanced by default, and explicitly mark them as such to readers with an appropriate banner? To remove this banner, we could introduce more stringent criteria requiring a wider consensus, including input from uninvolved editors. Articles that fail to pass these reviews would remain marked as "potentially biased". It would also be easier to re-introduce a banner if needed.
This approach would be less disruptive to the usual editing process, as the added rules would only relate to the article banner, while the content itself would continue to be edited according to the existing rules. Amayorov (talk) 11:17, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Springee
I'm not active in this area but I do see some serious issues with the Gaza Genocide page move. Part of this is the issue associated with very close/questionable closes being hard to change. This was an example where the !vote split was near 50/50 between the current title which reads as genocide is given, and the two alternatives which both made it clear this was an accusation/disputed claim. This is the sort of situation where a closer, while acting in good faith, can create issues with a questionable close. In this case, editors had good reason to question the close of POVTITLE grounds. However, with a basically 50/50 split between editors who were happy/unhappy with the move the review was closed as no-consensus. I feel in cases like this if we can't endorse the close then the close needs to be reverted (perhaps for a panel close). Note that this isn't specifically a problem for this topic area.
I would also suggest that within contentious topic areas it would be good to rule that POV neutrality is more important than ever. If Wikipedia is seen to be taking sides it undermines the credibility of the whole project. It also is more likely to create fights etc. I would encourage the committee to look not just at editor behavior but structural ways we can try to avoid these problem in the future. There are many good editors on both sides of this topic and even more who likely aren't on either side but who just want to do good work in this area. I think some rules based reforms vs finger pointing at editors might be helpful here. Springee (talk) 12:20, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
Statement by starship.paint
I wasn't intending to comment, but then I read #Motion 3: Involved participants as originally written by HJ Mitchell, which allows only uninvolved editors to vote. I believe this motion would greatly benefit sockpuppets and meatpuppets at the expense of experienced editors. starship.paint (RUN) 13:42, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
- I wholeheartedly endorse the proposal by Sean.hoyland to more liberally employ CheckUser in this topic to deal with potential ban evasion. If so you can start by checking Sean and myself. starship.paint (RUN) 12:28, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Vice_regent
I'd like to request the admins below kindly consider "moderated discussion" as a way to achieve consensus, and consider Talk:Jerusalem/2013 RfC discussion as a good example. The pre-RfC discussion involved some very lengthy analysis of sources. This is unavoidable given the volume of scholarship involved. But it was largely kept out of the RfC (WP:RFC/Jerusalem) itself. The RfC itself was orderly. And finally, it was closed by a panel with a detailed rationale.VR (Please ping on reply) 15:01, 18 September 2024 (UTC)
Comment on motions (VR)
- Motion 4
HJ Mitchell and CaptainEek, with respect to Motion 4: Enforced BRD, I personally felt that this provision became fairly unworkable in the case of WP:ARBIRP. There was lots of very lengthy discussion on who reverted what (eg see this lengthy discussion and this request for clarification). In small discussions (2-4 people) this motion effectively gives every participant a veto, which leads to WP:STONEWALLING. Everything had to be resolved by RfCs, which take a month to discuss and then maybe another month to wait to be closed.
Can I suggest that this remedy be applied similar to 2b: i.e. imposed by an uninvolved admin on a particular article for a particular time period (eg. imposed on all edits to X recent event article for 30 days).VR (Please ping on reply) 15:36, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
- Motion 2
CaptainEek for motion 2c, can I suggest it only apply to RfCs for which a WP:RFCBEFORE has been given adequate time? I find most RMs don't have a pre-discussion done, so if a change is being proposed for the first time, it can take longer than 1,000 words to do sufficient source analysis.VR (Please ping on reply) 15:43, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Supreme Deliciousness regarding Motion 4: Enforced BRD
This is a very bad idea because it will give editors the tool to lock out any material they dont like for any reason. They can then filibuster at the talkpage and make it virtually impossible to reinstate the material because "no consensus has been reached". Recently something very similar happened at the Golan Heights article where well sourced and relevant information was removed without any valid reason whatsoever. Certain editors will use this to disrupt articles within the area of conflict. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 06:16, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Super Goku V
Regarding a potential Motion 3b, maybe it is better to split the negatives from the motion? Maybe something like: Editors may designate themselves involved in the entire topic area or a subset of it, or may be designated by an uninvolved admin (on a user's talk page / by being logged at the Arbitration enforcement log). Designations by administrators may be appealed in the same way as sanctions. (Self-designations may be requested to be reviewed for removal after a year.) Designation is not a suggestion that an editor's contributions are problematic.
Then a potential Motion 5 could go into restrictions in place on those involved, such as unable to close discussions, only one new discussion a day, twenty comment limit a day for talk pages under ARBPIA, 1RR limit, must have 2.5k edits to participate outside edit requests, any and all other suggestions, etc. --Super Goku V (talk) 07:01, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Coretheapple
Seems that I've come here as this C&A is sunsetting. I am not sure about whether the motions will have an impact, but I imagine they are worth trying. Generally I agree with the comments made by Tryptofish, Swatjester and Number 57. I've reviewed the charts that have been proffered here, and I don't find them useful or probative of anything whatsoever. I suggest that the Committee go ahead, pass whatever you want to pass as motions, but also go ahead with a case as there is a need for one as the topic area needs help. I believe the source of the problems is that due to various reasons, the Wikipedia community as a whole has avoided this subject area. Thus the very basis of the project, which is the genius of crowds, has gone, and the result has been detrimental to both the community and the reader. These points were made early on by the three users I mentioned and others, but the point has been lost by the usual swamp of verbiage and deflection.Coretheapple (talk) 16:27, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
Amayorov afraid what you're suggesting would take the project off the hook in not just this case but in scores of contentious articles on every conceivable subject, whether officially designated as "contentious" or not. The project is an ongoing effort, and surrendering on that basic principle is inadvisable. Coretheapple (talk) 19:37, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
Supreme Deliciousness Not necessarily. If it has that effect, it can be put in reverse. I don't see the harm in trying to improve matters in these articles, even with a not-insignificant chance of failure. My guess is that the chance of failure if this BRD motion is passed is at least 50%. Coretheapple (talk) 19:42, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
Statement by {other-editor}
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
Palestine-Israel articles (AE referral): Clerk notes
- This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).
Palestine-Israel articles (AE referral): Implementation notes
Clerks and Arbitrators should use this section to clarify their understanding of which motions are passing. These notes were last updated by an automatic check at 03:40, 31 January 2023 (UTC)
Motion name | Support | Oppose | Abstain | Passing | Support needed | Notes |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Motion 1: Appeals only to ArbCom | 5 | 0 | 0 | ![]() |
1 | |
Motion 2a: Word limits | 0 | 3 | 0 | ![]() |
6 | |
Motion 2b: Word limits | 5 | 0 | 0 | ![]() |
1 | |
Motion 2c: Word limits | 4 | 0 | 0 | ![]() |
2 | |
Motion 3: Involved participants | 0 | 5 | 0 | ![]() |
Cannot pass | |
Motion 4: Enforced BRD | 4 | 1 | 0 | ![]() |
2 |
- Notes
Palestine-Israel articles (AE referral): Arbitrator views and discussion
- Thank you to the AE admins for submitting this referral. As a procedural note I would suggest that we limit the parties to this request to האופה and other users whose behavior is under consideration here (perhaps the editors listed under "Other editors whose behavior was directly mentioned in the AE thread", though even that list may be too long). @האופה: It would be quite helpful to have your perspective here. I would also appreciate hearing further from the uninvolved admins as to what you'd like ArbCom to do — I see two buckets of possibilities: (1) Hold a full case or case-like structure to resolve the complex multiparty questions here, and/or (2) Remedies that only ArbCom can impose (e.g.
Maybe even everyone is limited to 500-1000 words in any ARBPIA discussion.
as ScottishFinnishRadish suggests). Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 18:39, 17 August 2024 (UTC) - After reading the AE thread and the above statements, I think ArbCom will need to take some sort of action. I agree with L235 that I would like admins, both those involved in the AE and those that were not, to comment on whether it should be a full case or, if we are to resolve by motion, describe what ArbCom should enact to help admin find solutions to editor conduct issues. In response to how to refer a case to AE: instead of a magical incantation suggested by SFR, an admin can use a bolded vote at the beginning of a statement (something like "Refer to ArbCom", in bold) or as was done here, an uninvolved admin can determine that action as the consensus of the admin conversation. Z1720 (talk) 14:40, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Barkeep49: A bold vote isn't necessary, but it is an option. Since the question came up at AE here (in a humourous context that I chuckled at), and referrals to ArbCom from AE have not been common, I wanted to make sure there was clarification. Z1720 (talk) 15:07, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Barkeep49: Your answer was "correct" because it gave one path to refer an AE case to ArbCom/ARCA. My comment above was to highlight a second path to get the same result. Z1720 (talk) 15:14, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
- Support accepting this as a full case. Z1720 (talk) 16:41, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Barkeep49: Sorry that I did not answer your question sooner, as the ping was lost on my end. As the instructions are written, the admin that closes the AE discussion determines the consensus of admin who commented on the case. If the closing admin determines that the consensus is an ARCA referral or a case request, it is the closing admin's responsibility to post the request at the appropriate venue. Bolded !votes sometimes help the closing admin determine the consensus. I would not rely on the clerks to open cases at ARCA because I am not sure how closely the clerk team is monitoring AE. Z1720 (talk) 18:27, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Red-tailed hawk: You are correct: since the request is coming from AE, it would go through ARCA, not a case request. Z1720 (talk) 15:21, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Barkeep49: Sorry that I did not answer your question sooner, as the ping was lost on my end. As the instructions are written, the admin that closes the AE discussion determines the consensus of admin who commented on the case. If the closing admin determines that the consensus is an ARCA referral or a case request, it is the closing admin's responsibility to post the request at the appropriate venue. Bolded !votes sometimes help the closing admin determine the consensus. I would not rely on the clerks to open cases at ARCA because I am not sure how closely the clerk team is monitoring AE. Z1720 (talk) 18:27, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
- Support accepting this as a full case. Z1720 (talk) 16:41, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Barkeep49: Your answer was "correct" because it gave one path to refer an AE case to ArbCom/ARCA. My comment above was to highlight a second path to get the same result. Z1720 (talk) 15:14, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Barkeep49: A bold vote isn't necessary, but it is an option. Since the question came up at AE here (in a humourous context that I chuckled at), and referrals to ArbCom from AE have not been common, I wanted to make sure there was clarification. Z1720 (talk) 15:07, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
- I agree that action from ArbCom is necessary, and having reviewed everything over the past couple of days, looks like it may need to be a full case based on the complexity of the issue. - Aoidh (talk) 23:26, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
- This isn't much of an update, but I don't want to give the impression that this matter isn't being considered. I've been following the statements here and I am convinced a case is needed. At the latest, once the Historical elections Proposed decision is posted I intend to make this issue my primary focus as much as possible. I agree with User:Black Kite that the scope is important, though I'm not committed to any particular scope just yet. - Aoidh (talk) 03:33, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
- @BilledMammal: To your first question, while I have a good idea of what these issues are based on the statements and preliminary examinations of some of the articles/talk pages, evidence that certain issues are substantially more common and disruptive than others would be helpful in determining the scope. To the second question, I'd like to see parties decided on case creation, with parties added in the evidence phase only with compelling reason to do so. - Aoidh (talk) 20:25, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
- I'm open to SFR's suggestion that ArbCom handle the appeals. As to the word limit suggestion, it would at minimum have to be reworded before I'd support something like that. Short of possible scripts or off-wiki websites (most of which give inconsistent word count results), there's no easy way for a reasonable person to tell if an editor has contributed a given percentage of a discussion, especially if they're using a mobile device. - Aoidh (talk) 00:35, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
- @HJ Mitchell: A more effective route in handling this may be to have a case that focuses specifically on resolving the complex editor interaction issues that caused this to become an ARCA referral rather than jumping to a broader case that goes beyond those issues, or motions that do not address all of the issues in that AE discussion. A case with a set number of named parties that led to this arriving at ARCA would allow us to more thoroughly examine those issues and determine if this is something specific to those editors that might require sanctions, or if there may be more general actions that can be taken, in which case we can do so with a more thorough examination of the facts via a case. - Aoidh (talk) 19:55, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
- That sounds an awful lot like "let everyone throw mud at the wall and see what sticks". The combination of that approach and ArbCom feeling pressured to be seen to be doing something has historically led to poor or ineffectual outcomes. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 20:09, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
- The reason this was referred here was because the interaction between a specific group of editors and any issues caused by this was deemed too complex for AE to examine and address. A proper examination is needed to adequately address any issues, and if we're going to make a decision based on this request, a more fully informed decision is going to be a more effective one. - Aoidh (talk) 20:22, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
- That sounds an awful lot like "let everyone throw mud at the wall and see what sticks". The combination of that approach and ArbCom feeling pressured to be seen to be doing something has historically led to poor or ineffectual outcomes. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 20:09, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
- @HJ Mitchell: A more effective route in handling this may be to have a case that focuses specifically on resolving the complex editor interaction issues that caused this to become an ARCA referral rather than jumping to a broader case that goes beyond those issues, or motions that do not address all of the issues in that AE discussion. A case with a set number of named parties that led to this arriving at ARCA would allow us to more thoroughly examine those issues and determine if this is something specific to those editors that might require sanctions, or if there may be more general actions that can be taken, in which case we can do so with a more thorough examination of the facts via a case. - Aoidh (talk) 19:55, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
- I'm open to SFR's suggestion that ArbCom handle the appeals. As to the word limit suggestion, it would at minimum have to be reworded before I'd support something like that. Short of possible scripts or off-wiki websites (most of which give inconsistent word count results), there's no easy way for a reasonable person to tell if an editor has contributed a given percentage of a discussion, especially if they're using a mobile device. - Aoidh (talk) 00:35, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
- @BilledMammal: To your first question, while I have a good idea of what these issues are based on the statements and preliminary examinations of some of the articles/talk pages, evidence that certain issues are substantially more common and disruptive than others would be helpful in determining the scope. To the second question, I'd like to see parties decided on case creation, with parties added in the evidence phase only with compelling reason to do so. - Aoidh (talk) 20:25, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
- This isn't much of an update, but I don't want to give the impression that this matter isn't being considered. I've been following the statements here and I am convinced a case is needed. At the latest, once the Historical elections Proposed decision is posted I intend to make this issue my primary focus as much as possible. I agree with User:Black Kite that the scope is important, though I'm not committed to any particular scope just yet. - Aoidh (talk) 03:33, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
- I was hoping when I first joined ArbCom that we would not need to hold WP:PIA5, but it is starting to sound inevitable. Primefac (talk) 12:35, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
- We probably need to hold PIA5. --Guerillero Parlez Moi 18:08, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Huldra: I invented ECP, so I am 100% with rule changes to make the cat herding easier -- Guerillero Parlez Moi 06:48, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
- There has been an enforcement request against האופה / HaOfa, 2024-08-11, 20:50 UTC. The reported user has not edited since. During their absence, the report became a discussion about general behavior of multiple users in the area, then expectably too much to handle at AE, and now we're here with multiple arbitrators indicating an interest in opening a case. What I personally don't entirely get is how all this happened without a single statement from the single reported editor, and why ArbCom's task in this situation isn't to evaluate only האופה's conduct and close the original AE report with or without a sanction against האופה. If we aren't able to evaluate a single party's conduct, we aren't able to hear a case either. And if we are, a case can be requested at WP:ARC, with a list of desired parties, evidence of disruptive behavior of each, evidence of prior dispute resolution attempts about each, and without a general unenforceable aspersion-casting "we need to remove everyone from the topic area". ~ ToBeFree (talk) 23:26, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- I find SFR's proposals to be exciting ideas and suggest that at a minimum we propose them as structural reforms in the area, and pronto. I think there's an immediate problem that needs to be solved: this AE report. Resolving it is our necessary goal. I'm not opposed to holding a case here, and think that we probably should given that AE has done exactly what we told them they could and should do: refer cases to us. As much as I'm remiss to hold PIA5, it seems increasingly unavoidable. The world's most intractable problem continues to be our most intractable problem. Should this AE become PIA5 though? That's where I'm undecided and would be interested in more feedback on whether we can resolve the narrow origins of this AE report without also having to make it PIA5. It may benefit us to consider PIA5 independent of this AE request. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 20:36, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
- I apologise for the tardiness of my comments; I've been reading and thinking all along but I've had limited time to type out my thoughts, which requires a proper keyboard. I am reluctant to hold a PIA5, at least at this time and via this vehicle. I thought it was likely to come up and is one of the reasons I stood for ArbCom last year. It's likely we will end up holding it in some form but we need a clear scope and a clear question that ArbCom can answer. This is our most troublesome topic area and has already been through this process four times, so ArbCom may not have any tools left in its toolbox, having already created ARBECR out of whole new cloth. The Wikipedia dispute is a microcosm of the real-world dispute and a baker's dozen Wikipedia editors cannot resolve the entire Arab-Israeli conflict. On Wikipedia, the topic heats and cools with the real-world conflict and we are currently in a very large flare up due to horrific real-world events. I am sympathetic to the view that we have reached the limits of what can be achieved with the open, collaborative model given the proliferation of sockpuppetry in the area.
A case with a sprawling scope and no clear question that ArbCom can answer is likely to be an enormous time sink and end up producing little long-term benefit. Instead, I think SFR's suggestions have merit for maintaining some semblance of order, even if it means ArbCom playing a more proactive role than it's used to and hearing appeals of CTOP sanctions or acting as AE admins en banc. I would also welcome direct case requests or AE referrals if there are allegations that a particular editor is behaving tendentiously (ie, the sum of their contributions is disruptive even if no one diff in isolation is sanctionable) and AE admins are unable to reach a conclusion. And something that stood out to me from AHJ (and which I've been reminded of, reading some of the comments above about how knowledgeable many Wikipedians are on their chosen subject) was the analysis of sources; I didn't think it was ArbCom's place to be doing that analysis itself, but but it could be valuable to have an agreed baseline of what the academic literature says, which (aside from being useful in itself) would then support (or refute) allegations of source misrepresentation. One final thing we could do is avoid the use of news media and primary reporting in articles on current events (this could potentially be done by consensus, or ArbCom writ, or part of the suite of sanctions administrators have available and applied article by article).
Tl;dr: we need to do something, and we should welcome new ideas but a sprawling ARBPIA5 is unlikely to resolve anything satisfactorily. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 19:29, 1 September 2024 (UTC)
Palestine-Israel articles (AE referral): Arbitrator motions
Trying something different to see if we can break the deadlock without spending months on a case. I think we can have concise community feedback on individual motions to help with readability. These are all without prejudice to a case, now or at a later date. I'm also open to other ideas. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 21:20, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
- Just noting that I have seen these motions and am considering them along with all of the feedback from the community. Primefac (talk) 12:23, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
Motion 1: Appeals only to ArbCom
When imposing a contentious topic restriction under the Arab-Israeli conflict contentious topic, an uninvolved administrator may require that appeals be heard only by the Arbitration Committee. In such cases, the committee will hear appeals at ARCA according to the community review standard. A rough consensus of arbitrators will be required to overturn or amend the sanction.
- For this motion there are 10 active arbitrators. With 0 arbitrators abstaining, 6 support or oppose votes are a majority.
- Support
- More than happy to give AE another tool in the toolkit. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 03:53, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
- --Guerillero Parlez Moi 07:05, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
- Primefac (talk) 14:56, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
- I wouldn't support making all appeals to ArbCom by default, but if this takes some of the workload off of AE or gives admins cover to make unpopular but necessary decisions, I'm happy to take on some of that burden. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 15:07, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
- Okay. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 19:30, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Abstain
- Arbitrator discussion
- Proposed. Per SFR. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 21:20, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
Motion 2a: Word limits
All participants in formal discussions (RfCs, RMs, etc) within the area of conflict are urged to keep their comments concise, and are limited to 500 words per discussion.
- For this motion there are 10 active arbitrators. With 0 arbitrators abstaining, 6 support or oppose votes are a majority.
- Support
- Oppose
- I don't think an automatic 500 word limit would be beneficial. - Aoidh (talk) 15:03, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
- In favour of 2c. Primefac (talk) 14:56, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
- prefer 2c ~ ToBeFree (talk) 19:29, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
- Abstain
- Arbitrator discussion
- Proposed. Per SFR. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 21:20, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
- I would support this if it were 1,000 words. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 03:51, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
- That is reasonable --Guerillero Parlez Moi 07:06, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
- I would support this if it were 1,000 words. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 03:51, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
Motion 2b: Word limits
Uninvolved administrators may impose word limits on all participants in a discussion, or on individual editors across all discussions, within the area of conflict. These word limits are designated as part of the standard set of restrictions within the Arab-Israeli conflict contentious topic. These restrictions must be logged and may be appealed in the same way as all contentious topic restrictions.
- For this motion there are 10 active arbitrators. With 0 arbitrators abstaining, 6 support or oppose votes are a majority.
- Support
- Seems reasonable. There is many a discussion where an editor goes on to bludgeon a conversation by dint of replying endlessly and exhausting a books worth of words. Since bludgeoning can be quite hard to handle, I think a wordlimit is a useful tool that can be imposed on editors for whom that has been a problem. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 03:49, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
- --Guerillero Parlez Moi 07:06, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
- Primefac (talk) 14:56, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
- I prefer this slightly more targeted approach over blanket word limits. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 15:09, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
- ~ ToBeFree (talk) 19:27, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Abstain
- Arbitrator discussion
- Proposed. Per SFR. To mitigate bludgeoning. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 21:20, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
Motion 2c: Word limits
All participants in formal discussions (RfCs, RMs, etc) within the area of conflict are urged to keep their comments concise, and are limited to 1,000 words per discussion. This motion will sunset two years from the date of its passage.
- For this motion there are 10 active arbitrators. With 0 arbitrators abstaining, 6 support or oppose votes are a majority.
- Support
- As I say below, given the alarm bells being rung above, and the threat of PIA5, I think we have to consider drastic measures. I have added a sunset clause because I really do think this is an extreme measure that shouldn't be in effect in perpetuity. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 04:07, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
- --Guerillero Parlez Moi 07:07, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
- Primefac (talk) 14:56, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
- Okay, I think this might be the most useful proposal. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 19:24, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- Abstain
- Arbitrator discussion
- Proposing. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 03:59, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
- Tweaked it to add a sunset provision. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 04:07, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
Motion 3: Involved participants
Editors designated "involved" in the area of conflict may not register a bolded vote in formal discussions but may offer opinions and are encouraged to offer sources. Editors may designate themselves involved in the entire topic area or a subset of it, or may be designated by an uninvolved admin. Designations by administrators may be appealed in the same way as sanctions. Designation is not a suggestion that an editor's contributions are problematic.
- For this motion there are 10 active arbitrators. With 0 arbitrators abstaining, 6 support or oppose votes are a majority.
- Support
- Oppose
- While I understand the intention behind this, in practice I don't think this would improve anything in the CTOP area. - Aoidh (talk) 18:38, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
- Ideally, the bold formatting has no effect anyway and it's all about the arguments. Restricting the use of formatting does not reduce (but perhaps increase) the amount of words people use to explain their position. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 22:27, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
- There is no register of whom is involved --Guerillero Parlez Moi 10:05, 19 September 2024 (UTC)
- That would only drive away the existing editors, some of whom are quite valuable in the topic area. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 03:50, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
- Primefac (talk) 14:56, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
- Abstain
- Arbitrator discussion
- This may need some workshopping but the idea is to prioritise outside voices over the so-called "regulars". HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 21:20, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
Motion 4: Enforced BRD
Where a recent edit within the area of conflict is reverted for a substantive reason, it may not be reinstated by any editor until a discussion on the talk page reaches a consensus. Reverts made solely to enforce the extended-confirmed requirement are excluded from this requirement. This motion will sunset two years from the date of its passage.
- For this motion there are 10 active arbitrators. With 0 arbitrators abstaining, 6 support or oppose votes are a majority.
- Support
- I understand this will slow the topic area down and be a general barrier to editing. But given the alarm bells being rung above, and the threat of PIA5, I think we have to consider drastic measures. I'd also vote for a time limited version of this; i.e., with a sunset clause of a year, and we'd have to renew it or just let it return to the status quo ante. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 03:57, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
- Worth trying for 2 years --Guerillero Parlez Moi 07:08, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
- Noting that I will likely support any tweaks and changes to clarify "recent". Primefac (talk) 14:56, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
- Yes this will slow editing down (though I hope admins will exercise common sense when it comes to honest mistakes) but to a certain extent that's what we want. Reducing the urgency might help to lower the temperature. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 15:20, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose
- WP:ONUS and WP:BURDEN are important to me, and as "reverting" includes the restoration of content where verifiability is disputed, I can't support this. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 19:34, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
- Abstain
- Arbitrator discussion
- A version of this that admins can impose on individual articles might also work. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 21:20, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
- HJ Mitchell, I've added "within the area of conflict" above to avoid any possible impression of the motion applying to all edits wiki-wide. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 22:29, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
- Seeing as I'm the first to vote for this, I've boldly added my suggested sunset provision. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 04:10, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
- SFR has raised a good point: "recent" is a vague definition. I'm thinking we could clarify it as either 1) reverting any edit made within the last 24 hours or 2) reverting the most recent edit to an article if it hasn't been edited in more than 24 hours. But that definitely adds a level of complexity. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 07:14, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
- Tying it to the normal 3RR definition of 24 hours does seem like a good idea, but I also like the idea of "most recent edit" as well. Primefac (talk) 14:56, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
- I deliberately kept it vague because "recent" means different things in different contexts. In the context of the ongoing war where information changes rapidly and articles are edited to keep up, an edit from an hour ago might be outdated and buried in the history but some of the higher-level articles can stay stable for weeks or months. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 15:17, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
- Tying it to the normal 3RR definition of 24 hours does seem like a good idea, but I also like the idea of "most recent edit" as well. Primefac (talk) 14:56, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
- SFR has raised a good point: "recent" is a vague definition. I'm thinking we could clarify it as either 1) reverting any edit made within the last 24 hours or 2) reverting the most recent edit to an article if it hasn't been edited in more than 24 hours. But that definitely adds a level of complexity. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 07:14, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
- Seeing as I'm the first to vote for this, I've boldly added my suggested sunset provision. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 04:10, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
- HJ Mitchell, I've added "within the area of conflict" above to avoid any possible impression of the motion applying to all edits wiki-wide. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 22:29, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
- TarnishedPath 3RR currently uses 24 hours? What would you suggest as a definition? CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 16:05, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
Clarification request: Conduct in deletion-related editing
Initiated by Cunard at 05:24, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
- Case or decision affected
- Conduct in deletion-related editing arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
- Cunard (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)
- 7&6=thirteen (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- TenPoundHammer (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
Statement by Cunard
I request clarification on these two remedies:
- Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Conduct in deletion-related editing#7&6=thirteen topic banned
- "7&6=thirteen (talk · contribs) is topic banned from deletion discussions, broadly construed. This ban may be appealed twelve months after the enactment of this remedy, and every twelve months thereafter."
- Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Conduct in deletion-related editing#TenPoundHammer topic banned (1)
- "TenPoundHammer (talk · contribs) is topic banned from deletion discussions, broadly construed. This ban may be appealed twelve months after the enactment of this remedy, and every twelve months thereafter."
The two topic bans say the editors are "topic banned from deletion discussions, broadly construed".
Does this topic ban include:
- initiating or participating in merge discussions
- proposing an article for deletion or contesting a proposed deletion
- adding {{Notability}} tags to articles
In this Amendment request, the Arbitration Committee did not consider turning an article into a redirect to be a violation of the topic ban. I did not think any of these actions would have violated the ban. But now I am not certain.
I created this clarification request after reading this ANI discussion, where editors found that 7&6=thirteen's contributions to a merge discussion violated the topic ban.
TenPoundHammer has started proposed merges including 1, 2, 3, and 4, and 5 and added the {{Notability}} tag to a number of articles including 1, 2, and 3.
I would like the Arbitration Committee to clarify which actions are allowed under the topic ban. Thank you.
Statement by User:7&6=thirteen
I acknowledge that I am aware of this discussion. I am aware of the topic ban from DELETION discussions entered a long time ago (2 years+), and have been in full avoidance and compliance. I admit that I edited a request to MERGE from and about an article that I had extensively edited into another geographically-relate article. At the time, I did not believe that the topic ban included a merger request. I was not "testing the boundaries", and had not done anything like that, abiding in good faith for the last two years. I posted things on that article talk page. There I made a mistake concerning the attribution of a needless irrelevant personal attack that had been made on that page. I corrected that (struck it out and inserted the actual quote by a different editor) and apologized. I made a mistake, and I undertook striking out the comment and also publicizing my apology. Details and an explanation of that are on my talk page, and I will not repeat them here. I had no intent to violate the TOPIC BAN on DELETION discussions; I recognize that there are those who allege that MERGE discussions are now included. While I disagree, I will simply implement that counsel in the future.
Indeed, I have given up entirely editing of DELETION discussions, and will now avoid all MERGE discussions in the future. You don't need to clarify or change the rule on my account.
However, extending this TOPIC BAN for a new and additional period is not justified or needed. It is unwarranted and unnecessarily punitive; and is not reflective or proportionate of my conduct or intent. A new finding will unfairly suggest that I did something wrong meriting a new set of sanctions, and would prejudice any future request to remove the three 2-year-old topic bans (WP:DELETION DISCUSSIONS, WP:ARS, and WP:DYK, for a year, but which apparently are self renewing and perpetual). I've followed all of them. Asking for them to be removed is not something in my contemplation at this time.
Nevertheless, I will implement my promise indefinitely, irrespective of any 'clarification' or not. I do not need the hassle. The point has been made, understood and put into practice.
For what it's worth, I have never initiated a MERGER proposal in 16 years of editing. Nor have I ever added Notability tags to articles. This has nothing to do with me or anything I did. I does not pertain to me and those accusations are irrelevant; you are being asked to fix something that ain't broke and didn't happen.7&6=thirteen (☎) 12:54, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
- As a point of clarification, I note it was SerialNumber54129 (who is implicated here) who posted the irrelevant personal argumentum ad hominem that I called out at the merger discussion. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 16:41, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
- Meanwhile, they
struckmy comments on that talk page, and annotated that they should be disregarded, because I had been "topic banned" from DELETION discussions ["7&6=thirteen is indefinitely topic banned from deletion discussions, broadly construed."] So if there are those who need guidance, it's not me. They did not like my content, and are putting their 'thumbs on the scale.' - Related discussion so the record is clear. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 12:27, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
- Meanwhile, they
- [Reply to Guerillero] Sorry to see you have "profound disappointment." But I was within the prior rule as this was not a DELETION discussion, and so far as I recall I had not even ventured into any other MERGER discussion in 2+ years. This was once; and only came up because I had edited this article. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 18:24, 20 September 2024 (UTC)
Statement by TenPoundHammer
Personally, I think this is being blown out of proportion again. I have not suggested that anything be sent to AFD after the last go-round, where I was warned not to do that again. It's clear how "should this be taken to AFD?" can be seen as me trying to skirt the topic ban. The below-cited Weird Al examples were on August 13, and the formal notification was not until the 26th, after which I have not done anything like that again.
I was also topic-banned from WP:BLAR. I have performed a couple merges since then, but these have been good-faith attempts to make sure at least some of the content makes it into the target article (e.g., List of Nitty Gritty Dirt Band members) after a clear consensus had been made to do so by other editors. If this is indeed too adjacent to my BLAR and/or XFD topic-bans for comfort, then I will cease doing it again until the topic ban is lifted (and not try to convince other editors to do it for me).
I don't see anything wrong with placing the {{notability}} tag, as I am not using it for anything other than its intended purpose. Whatever happens to the article after I tag it is entirely in the hands of other editors, and as stated above, I am no longer trying to persuade others to send content to XFD. I have noticed that a couple articles I tagged did get redirected or AFD'd by others, but in none of these cases did I make a suggestion of doing so.
I have not prodded any articles since the topic ban, since I assumed doing so would constitute a violation of the topic ban. I have deprodded a few articles without incident, and a prior inquiry as to whether this violated my topic ban had gone unanswered. I personally do not think de-prodding should be part of my topic ban.
tl;dr: Just like the last time I got brought here, I feel this is much ado about nothing. Ten Pound Hammer • (What did I screw up now?) 20:43, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
Statement by INVOLVED Seriality
Quote:
Yes, I think I agree. It's because "deletion" has a pretty strict meaning on Wikipedia. A topic ban narrowly construed would, by implication, be a ban from that process specifically. But the fact that it is deliberately broader—i.e. more comprehensive—suggests that a less strict definition should be applied. And as GoDG argues, a border interpretation of deletion is anything that removes a page from the reader's eye, as merging, redirecting and incubating do (although it's only the process that 13 is TB from; a restriction on editing the articles themselves would hopefully be too broad an interpretation). SerialNumber54129 17:28, 6 September 2024 (UTC)
SerialNumber54129 13:10, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
- @7&6=13: I know I am "implicated". That's why I upper-cased "involved" in my section header *facepalm*
- @Primefac. I don't think anyone is actually saying that merge discussions are deletion discussions; it's more nuanced than that (to be fair, is AE really set up for nuance?). Rather, that, in your metaphor, it's not whether content should be deleted, but whether it should live in the reader's eye or out of their sight. A merge is not a deletion, but that is not to say it doesn't appear that different to the WP:READER, who, whatever we dress the discussion up as, will not be able to see material they once could. SerialNumber54129 18:56, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
- @Newyorkbrad: As you said on a previous committee, 'banned means baned', absolutely in line with WP:TBAN:
A ban is not merely a request to avoid editing "unless they behave". The measure of a ban is that even if the editor were to make good or good-faith edits, permitting them to edit in those areas is perceived to pose enough risk of disruption, issues, or harm, to the page or to the project, that they may not edit at all, even if the edits seem good.
Your current remarks seem incompatible with policy. Indeed uou would seem to be allowing editing through a topic ban depending on who makes them and/or the nature of the edits. This is a seismic shift in policy. Apologies if I've misunderstood any subtext. SerialNumber54129 10:16, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- Well, I think you made up in opacity what you lacked in clarity. Thank though! SerialNumber54129 11:18, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
Statement by GhostOfDanGurney
I felt that thirteen's posts were a clear-cut violation of a "broadly construed" TBan from deletion discussions, since that discussion was on whether or not Bent's Camp Resort should or shouldn't be merged into Mamie Lake (Wisconsin), therefore potentially resulting in the content of Bent's Camp Resort being BLAR'd (noting that the section for BLAR contains a "see also" hatnote linking to the deletion policy's section on redirections).
Given that the discussion was at Talk:Mamie Lake (Wisconsin) and not Talk:Bent's Camp Resort, I do think there's just enough ambiguity here that I didn't call for sanctions at ANI nor did I go to AE. At the time I felt striking the offending comments and a "don't do that again" were sufficient. However, @Tamzin: gave them an "only warning" in March 2023, specifically referencing this same "broadly construed" language, so I'm now not sure that "don't do that again" hasn't already been said. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk) 13:15, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
Regarding TPH (which I was unaware of their recent merge proposals before), this given example at Talk:"Weird Al" Yankovic in which they say "Either merge it or AFD it."
should similarly be seen as a clear-cut, possibly egregious violation. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk) 14:02, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Szmenderowiecki
I don't have a horse in this race, but generally I'd say that if somebody's TBan says "broadly construed", they shouldn't test its boundaries. It is generally a bad idea whether it is broadly construed or not, because they already have drawn attention from admins, but particularly so with this warning. Trying to wikilawyer your way through your TBan is pure FAFO behaviour, and they shouldn't be upset if the admins start cracking down. The answer to your questions IMHO is pretty obvious:
- Yes, because merging will lead to at least some deletion of content - the nominated article may get deleted, some content during merger may be lost, and so on.
- Yes, because it is participation in said discussions, whether contesting PRODs or nominating for deletion.
- Not necessarily, as tagging by itself does not automatically lead to deletion discussions and in fact articles may sometimes stay with notability tags for years without getting deleted. Adding a problem tag is not in general participating in deletion discussions. They can tell on the talkpage what they believe is wrong with the article. But urging people to go towards a deletion discussion, or anything that would touch it, is something they should avoid as part of their sanctions. Again, they would be better off if instead of tagging, they actually found the sources, or told others they couldn't find any at all. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 17:20, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
- Replying to Flatscan - merge discussions are processed in the same venue as deletion discussions. So there potentially is a chance that what is a merge discussion may soon turn out to have consensus in favour of deletion. You didn't intend to delete, but you did get involved in a deletion discussion after all because the final result was delete. And yes, the nom has no control over how the discussion goes. Blocking for violating TBan in this case would be unfair, but you will definitely find people who will assert he violated his TBan regardless. It doesn't matter if mergers/blanking-and-redirecting are not technically deletions. The matter is, that discussion may yield a delete result.
- Because if that interpretation is correct, then basically the editor can spam AfDs with "merge" or "redirect" instead of "delete" and get away scot free because "I cannot predict if the article is gonna be deleted, I just respect the boundaries not to argue for deletion"
- This is why in my playbook "broadly construed" means "imagine any possible scenario in which an admin may potentially block you, even if they are not totally right, and stay away from it".
- That said, I agree with NYB below that we should punish participation per se but only if it continues to be disruptive. If it is not disruptive but still a violation of TBan, then a warning should be enough, and a recommendation to do something else and just wait until the TBan expires. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 10:21, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Flatscan
- Page deletion (WP:Deletion policy) and content removal (WP:Editing policy) are distinct.
- Merging or redirecting (0% merge, nothing copied) is not deletion.
- WP:Deletion policy#Merging (shortcut WP:ATD-M) and WP:Deletion policy#Redirection (shortcut WP:ATD-R) are subsections under Alternatives to deletion.
- WP:Redirect#Redirects that replace previous articles (guideline, shortcut WP:BLAR):
If other editors disagree with this blanking, its contents can be recovered from page history, as the article has not been deleted.
The omission of PROD was mentioned by arbitrators at WP:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Conduct in deletion-related editing/Proposed decision#TenPoundHammer topic banned (1), but it was not added explicitly.
Flatscan (talk) 04:34, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
Szmenderowiecki, your statement that merge discussions are processed in the same venue as deletion discussions
is not accurate in this case and many others. As recommended by WP:Merging#Proposing a merge (information page) and WP:Proposed article mergers (process page), Talk:Mamie Lake (Wisconsin)#Merge Proposal is not an AfD. Neither of the restricted users edited WP:Articles for deletion/Bent's Camp Resort. Participating in any AfD would be an unambiguous violation of their topic bans, contrary to your hypothetical reasoning that would allow the editor [to] spam AfDs
. Flatscan (talk) 04:30, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Newyorkbrad
I realize that the scope of a topic-ban can be viewed independently of any specific edits that might or might not violate it. Nonetheless, it might be relevant to ask whether there have been any actual problems with the affected editors' participation in the disputed types of discussions, other than the mere fact of their doing so. Newyorkbrad (talk) 15:47, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
- I seem not to have been completely clear in my earlier comment. My point was not that editors should be free to ignore topic-bans if they are making (what they perceive as) beneficial edits. It is that the scope of a topic-ban in the first place should be keyed to the scope of the problem it is intended to solve. If an editor edits unhelpfully about topic X but productively about adjacent topic Y, then in a doubtful case and all other things being equal, one might not want to construe a topic-ban on X to include Y. Of course, where the applicability of the topic ban is clear then it must be observed, unless and until it is modified. Newyorkbrad (talk) 15:15, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
Statement by {other-editor}
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
Conduct in deletion-related editing: Clerk notes
- This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).
Conduct in deletion-related editing: Arbitrator views and discussion
- Merge discussions are not deletion discussions; they are discussions of where content should live, not if content should stay. I am somewhat on the fence about {{notability}} tags, as it is a maintenance tag and not necessarily a discussion (though potentially the start of a discussion); I am willing to be persuaded in either direction. PROD would definitely fall under the "broadly construed" of deletion discussions, though. Primefac (talk) 18:29, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
- @SN, that is fair, I suppose my thinking is that merges are far enough removed from deletion (even though some content may be left out of the final product) that they would not fall under the "broadly construed" umbrella. Primefac (talk) 19:40, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
- I'll tackle these in the order presented:
- Yes initiating or participating in merge discussions: This rides the line, but I come out as a "yes this is in scope." A merge discussion has many of the same hallmarks that a deletion discussion does. A merge discussion may also result in the practical deletion of an article, because redirected content is not always worth saving. The broad scope of the restriction favors including otherwise borderline topics.
- Yesproposing an article for deletion or contesting a proposed deletion: Clearly within scope for me. A ban from deletion wouldn't be very effective if someone could sidestep it by prodding articles.
- No adding Notability tags to articles: I don't see this as an issue. While I have personal beliefs about tag bloat, and think they should be used more sparingly than we do, placing a tag is not a deletion or a discussion. While it might eventually prompt someone else to AfD the article, I see such a link as truly too tenuous to be in scope.
- At any rate, I wouldn't punish 7&6 or TPH for having been in merge discussions up to this point, since I do think it was arguable as to whether merges are in scope. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 20:48, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- I think that merge discussions are outside of the bounds of the topic ban, I would like to register my profound disappointment that both 7&6 and TPH seem to be unable to stop touching the general area of the notability of topics. --Guerillero Parlez Moi 12:32, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
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Johnrpenner
As a result of this request:Johnrpenner is topic banned indefinitely from Anthroposophy, broadly construed. Tgeorgescu is warned for talk page participation which is at times both excessively voluminous and excessively frequent, resulting in bludgeoning. In addition to any standard CTOP remedies, restrictions upon the frequency and/or length of Tgeorgescu's posts within the Anthroposophy topic area or on any particular page within it may be imposed without further warning or AE discussion by any uninvolved administrator. Tgeorgescu is encouraged to engage community dispute resolution processes if a discussion reaches an impasse rather than continuing discussions which have become fruitless or intractable. Seraphimblade Talk to me 17:52, 16 September 2024 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Johnrpenner
Discussion concerning JohnrpennerStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Johnrpennerafter making additions to the 'Anthroposophy' article — user tgeorgescu deleted / reverted my edits, and so i took it on to the talk page, asking him: instead of just deleting a whole bunch of stuff, why not engage in something more constructive? he did not engage in a friendly fashion, and quickly shut me down, and launched this Arbitration request against me. if i were writing an article on the phenomenolgy of colour — i would expect to see criticism and debate — but i would also expect to see some effort in improving the article — doing what wikipedia does — helping provide some sense of the topic, which covers a neutral and informed point of view. user tgeorgescu has expended considerable effort solely directed towards attacking and finding sources discrediting Anthroposophy (hundreds upon hundreds of edits.. almost as if it were some sort of personal vendetta). if one sees only efforts directed at this — then i might also question how neutral things are — when i dont see as much effort towards contributing anything that might help provide insight on the given topic. tgeorgescu claims category error — and my claim is that anthroposophy is no more scientific than the subject of philosophy. in my edits — i did not dispute or remove his claims, and took care to preserve his references/links and to make it clear that anthroposophy is not scientific. i believe i was following the wiki principle as stated in WP:RNPOV — as follows: WP:RNPOV § Neutrality: In the case of beliefs and practices, Wikipedia content should not only encompass what motivates individuals who hold these beliefs and practices but also account for how such beliefs and practices developed. Wikipedia articles on history and religion draw from religion's sacred texts as primary sources and modern archaeological, historical, and scientific works as secondary and tertiary sources. in short — this issue could have been more constructively solved with some friendly edits aimed at improving the article, and making a subject more understandable — for example: i) what are the epistemogical differences which distinguish anthroposophy from critical idealism? ii) from whom did steiner get the idea — the article mentioned 'German Idealism', but neglected to mention Goethe. iii) the article talks about 'perception of the spiritual world' — but it fails to mention the key role Anthroposophists place on Intuition in this regard. these would all be useful things to know if i was a reader and unfamiliar with the subject. instead, tgeorgescu has undertaken to report me to arbitration — i find it disingenous to spend such an inordinate amount of time logging in such an amount of effort cataloguing all criticisms against Anthroposophy — without making any efforts towards providing the reader with a better comprehension of what is being criticized — the criticisms and critics tgeorgescu has referenced only makes a case for condemning Anthroposophists — and deleting or reverting edits which disagree with him — and ultimately weaponizing the wiki process — which i find is generally quite fair, and i expect someone might be able to follow up and arbitrate his disproportionate critical activity, and attacks against users like myself which are trying to make honest contributions (as i have helped improve numerous other wiki articles, and believe in the wiki process). i have no complaint against a good critical review of contributions to wikipedia - good editors, good referencing, and the good will to work together instead of shutting people down is what makes wikipedia great and useful. please, lets work together, and find a way to make better articles. peace out. Johnrpenner (talk) 03:19, 22 August 2024 (UTC) Statement by fivebytgeorgescu could use some help at Talk:Anthroposophy in trying to nip problems in the bud before they escalate. See this this FTN thread from November of last year (maybe just read Hob Gadling's comment at the end of the collapsed "Extended content") All that effort expended when it turns out an editor was just using phony citations for content. When he raises issues at FTN i at least often feel behind the curve with an unfamiliar topic, and tgeorgescu usually seems to be going it alone on the talk page. I don't know if AE can do anything to help and maybe the answer here is just to remember to watchlist the articles and pay more attention. fiveby(zero) 06:36, 23 August 2024 (UTC) Statement by KoAI want to echo's fiveby's sentiment above, and I would caution admins to be mindful to check out what they link at FTN. I’ve been noticing that problem at the noticeboards and tgeorgescu’s frustration too often handling a lot of fringe stuff and now apparently becoming a target off-wiki for it. theleekycauldron, I am concerned about your comments here at this time in the AE and making them in the uninvolved admin section. I reviewed the talk page[53], and the only recent dispute was from this interaction at Talk:Anthroposophy#Violation_of_WP:PSCI. However, I couldn't verify any of your claims made without diffs there such as However tgeorgescu, I do have some advice after seeing your comments on talk pages over the years. Remember to center yourself on the ideas of WP:NOTFORUM/WP:FOC more often on article talk pages. I have seen you give in-depth answers at times when not needed or just posting on the talk page not clearly tied to any edit.[54] Sometimes I've seen you come back for an "and another thing" comment when the conversation was just likely to die. I saw that before your warning theleekycauldron mentions, and it looks like you've been vastly improving in what I've reviewed so far. That said, be careful about personalizing comments about editors or how comments might appear to be a battleground mentality. That too creates more heat than light like I just cautioned theleekycauldron. When I look at the AE after their comment, you brought up that you felt like you were being trolled by Johnrpenner at the article with comments like
Statement by (username)Result concerning Johnrpenner
I think we're largely in agreement at least in principle, and the devil's more in the details. How would you envision a "warning with teeth"? Seraphimblade Talk to me 11:57, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
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Arbitration enforcement action appeal by The Mountain of Eden
Appeal is moot as the block has expired, but there wasn't much appetite to overturn it. Vanamonde93 (talk) 22:54, 12 September 2024 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear and substantial consensus of uninvolved administrators" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action. To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).
Statement by The Mountain of EdenI was accused of violating WP:1RR. I did not. I committed only one revert. On my talk page, I explained that an edit that Makeandtoss accused me of being a revert is just a copyedit since I did not undo any other editor's edits. An univolved admin refused to unblock me on procedural grounds, and advised me to appeal here. The Mountain of Eden (talk) 04:10, 1 September 2024 (UTC)
⇒ More than 24 hours.
The Mountain of Eden (talk) 14:27, 4 September 2024 (UTC) ScottishFinnishRadish: the edit in question was not a removal of content. The Mountain of Eden (talk) 15:23, 4 September 2024 (UTC) ScottishFinnishRadish: Unattributed??? The attribution is at the end of the sentence: <ref>{{cite news|url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/08/01/hamas-commander-mohammed-deif-killed/|title=Top Hamas commander Mohammed Deif killed in Israeli strikes, IDF says|author1=Louisa Loveluck|author2=Shira Rubinwork|newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]|date=August 1, 2024|access-date=1 August 2024|archive-date=3 August 2024|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20240803052718/https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/08/01/hamas-commander-mohammed-deif-killed/|url-status=live}}</ref> (emphasis added). The Mountain of Eden (talk) 16:11, 4 September 2024 (UTC) Barkeep49, ScottishFinnishRadish: I went back and looked at the allged first revert, and I believe it is absolutley unfair to call it a partial revert.
You have to compare to the most recent version, not a version from 36 edits and 18 days prior. I am disappointed that this is not an open and shut case that I did not violate 1RR. The Mountain of Eden (talk) 04:57, 5 September 2024 (UTC) Please do not procedurally close the appeal on the grounds that the block has expired. If appropriate, a 1 second block could be issued to add a statement to the block log saying that the previous block was successfully appealed after the block expired. Or, as I see the case currently standing, a 1 second block could be issued to say that an appeal of the previous block closed without a consensus, as I am not seeing the community affirming the sanctions imposed against me. The Mountain of Eden (talk) 22:20, 9 September 2024 (UTC) Statement by ScottishFinnishRadishNegating the effect of an edit is a revert. There have been many long term edit wars over attribution, like the locus of this revert. The whole point of 1rr is to prevent the disruption caused by edit warring, and is a bright line. In this case the editor has already had an issue with 1rr and not recognizing a revert, and responding with hostility to the 1rr notification. As for my responsiveness, I received around 40 alerts and notifications in the past 24 hours, and I have around 5400 pages on my watchlist. I don't see any ping from their talk page, just an unblock request that didn't generate a notification. The message on my talk page looks to be about 24 hours old. Lastly, it would be nice to see one of these appeals say, "I won't do that again." — Preceding unsigned comment added by ScottishFinnishRadish (talk • contribs) 13:02, 1 September 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Sean.hoylandNo one is going to like this idea because it's premised on the notion that certain events, like a block, should trigger a checkuser in PIA. An offer. If they pass a checkuser they can be unblocked. I'm curious whether the user would accept this kind of deal. Sean.hoyland (talk) 16:12, 1 September 2024 (UTC) Well, since the question was raised, the Lehi Street bombing socks are probably not The Mountain (Icewhiz). But, as far as I can tell from a technical data (that does not qualify as evidence at SPI), The Mountain could be a sock of User:Plot Spoiler. This result is (surprisingly for me) consistent with the fact that they registered their account at 2024-04-30T21:39:22, less than an hour after Plot Spoiler's last sock, User:Loksmythe, was blocked at 2024-04-30T20:45:08...unless it is all a coincidence, which is absolutely possible. I am not going to file an SPI (mainly because a) the evidence I have is not evidence at SPI and b) blocked accounts can simply create a new account if they haven't already done so and rapidly gain EC thanks to the many tools Wikipedia provides for new users to get them started). Sean.hoyland (talk) 05:54, 3 September 2024 (UTC) Statement by SelfstudierReported editor is not paying attention to their block anyway, see Lehi Street bombing (article created by sock on 24 August and substantially edited by edited by another on 2 September). Selfstudier (talk) 22:25, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
Hum, a source title does not constitute inline attribution in the way I understand that, reported editor likes to wikilawyer stuff, I think.Selfstudier (talk) 16:16, 4 September 2024 (UTC) Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by The Mountain of EdenStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by AquillionThis was clearly not a revert, not unless we're going to classify every single edit as a revert (which would make editing in 1RR areas untenable). The effect of this edit was to add a statement. Adding attribution elaborates on that statement; it does not "undo" it. That sort of addition is not a revert unless comparable attribution had previously been present and had been removed, which was not the case here. I'm also a bit puzzled by the fact that the blocking admin then immediately restored the previous revision afterwards; maybe I've just missed it, or perhaps practice has changed, but AFAIK that has never been part of the remedy for 1RR/3RR violations. The 3RR is about conduct and not article content; therefore, the remedy consists of a block or some other preventative measure but does not normally involve undoing the offending revert as an administrative action unless BLP violations or some similarly compelling situation requires it. Actual administrative action to change article content is rare and reserved for situations like WP:BLP where the issue is the content itself and not editor conduct; the administrator guidance for edit warring talks solely about blocks and the like, not about throwing a final revert onto the pile to "fix" things. Both of these things - the 3RR generally not covering genuinely new additions that might "water down" the text except in the most egregious cases, and revisions to article content not being part of the remedy - are IMHO important because the 3RR sits on a delicate balance; we need a red line to prevent revert-wars, but we also want to avoid situations where the red line could be weaponized to force the article into a particular state, which could lead to WP:STONEWALLing and paradoxically encourage revert-wars by rewarding the first mover. This is even more true for the 1RR; the 3RR is somewhat safe because pushing things to the line is itself misconduct, but the 1RR requires so little that an even slightly intransigent editor raising totally reasonable objections and making entirely reasonable reverts could bring editing on a low-traffic article to a standstill if it was interpreted too broadly. --Aquillion (talk) 03:21, 4 September 2024 (UTC) Statement by (uninvolved editor 1)Statement by (uninvolved editor 2)Result of the appeal by The Mountain of Eden
Do I love that edit summary? No. However, I stand by my statement: they attempted to find consensus through differing wording combinationswhich in a non-1RR topic area would certainly be enough for me but even here strikes me as the good faith (perhaps naively so) interpretation of their actions. However, we are in a 1RR topic area so it all gets trickier. Barkeep49 (talk) 16:14, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
@ScottishFinnishRadish and Barkeep49: I too would be interested in what other admins think about the issue we disagree on, but while we've been waiting for more input, the page-block expired by time several days ago. Should we continue to leave this thread open, or close it as unsuccessful (over my dissent) for lack of consensus? Meanwhile, if any other admins would like to weigh in, now is the time. Thanks, Newyorkbrad (talk) 15:28, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
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IntrepidContributor
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning IntrepidContributor
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Levivich (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 18:35, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- IntrepidContributor (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- WP:ARBPIA
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- Sep 7 16:55 - first revert
- Sep 7 17:41 - second revert
- User talk:IntrepidContributor#1RR - declined to self-rv
- Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
- 24hr 3RR block on 10/15/22 [55]
- If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)
- alerted Aug 18
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
I think this account is almost certainly a sock. Compare their timecard/edit history with Wierzba (Wierzba xtools) and IsraPara2 (IsraPara2 xtools) (see Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Wierzba). IntrepidContributor, AFAICT, had never edited in ARBPIA in its first round of activity (7/22 - 2/23). The account was mostly inactive between 2/23 until August 17, 2024, when they started getting involved in ARBPIA for the first time. Aug 16, 2024, is when the AE against O.maximov closed with a warning (Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive338#O.maximov). IntrepidContributor has only made 30 edits since Aug 17, almost all focused on fighting the "Gaza genocide" move. O.maximov was later blocked as a sock at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Icewhiz#27 August 2024. I could go file at SPI, and this account was on my list of SPIs-to-file, but it would save a bunch of paperwork if reviewing admin could just {{Checkuser needed}} here to see if these accounts are a technical match, which I expect they will be. If you want more behavioral evidence before requesting a CU, or if you want me to file a separate SPI, let me know. Thanks, Levivich (talk) 18:35, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
I mainly edit the Russian and Ukrianian wikis...
Special:CentralAuth/IntrepidContributor says 0 edits to ruwiki or ukwiki. Perhaps they edit there with another account? Levivich (talk) 18:55, 7 September 2024 (UTC)- So if I understand correctly, AE is not well-suited for multi-party disputes, but it looks at all parties? Levivich (talk) 06:17, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- SFR:
it turns out we have multiple editors involved here that have !voted with no procedural objections in RMs opened within days after earlier RMs closing, or been part of opening such RMs
Diffs/links for this incredible claim? Levivich (talk) 14:05, 10 September 2024 (UTC)- Damn, SFR. That first RM was just about the disambiguator. It said "It is intended without prejudice against any other discussions or requested moves such as regarding changing the "Israel–Hamas war" wording." That's why the second RM was OK in that instance. Not comparable to this case. Your analysis is very similar to BM's in that you're overlooking massive differences. Can't believe this. Levivich (talk) 14:31, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- SFR, please re-ping those arbs and explain your earlier accusation was false in light of what I've written above. Levivich (talk) 14:40, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- Oh no, SFR, your second example doesn't support your statement in multiple ways: it wasn't multiple editors, and anyway, in your second example, the first RM ended in "not moved" and explicitly suggested further discussion: "This close is without prejudice to opening a further discussion". You just made the same mistake twice, comparing RMs that explicitly said no prejudice to another RM. I went over this in detail on BM's talk page. You need to fix what you wrote, not double down on it. Levivich (talk) 15:10, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- Damn, SFR. That first RM was just about the disambiguator. It said "It is intended without prejudice against any other discussions or requested moves such as regarding changing the "Israel–Hamas war" wording." That's why the second RM was OK in that instance. Not comparable to this case. Your analysis is very similar to BM's in that you're overlooking massive differences. Can't believe this. Levivich (talk) 14:31, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- FWIW I'm 100% going to appeal this to AN, TBANs or not. Reopening the RM was massively disruptive. I don't believe the community will decide that it was OK to launch that RM or that the right thing to do was to let it run. AE got this one wrong. Levivich (talk) 14:17, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- FWIW, separate from asking at AN whether shutting down the RM was the right thing to do, I'm also probably going to ask ARCA to take another look at the whole "1RR doesn't apply" thing again. If that's the scope of 1RR, it at least needs to be documented somewhere, because right now every 1RR talk page notice says 1RR applies to "this article" which everyone will understand means the talk page too, and WP:1RR says it's the same as 3RR, which explicitly applies on all pages. (Also it doesn't make much sense to exempt talk pages anyway.) Levivich (talk) 14:56, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- @BK: never closed, just deleted. I deleted it, then Self, then SN, then Self un-deleted it after this AE, and it's since run. Surely no one will touch it now (except an admin). I have no problem with "should have been been closed instead of just deleted," if that's the procedure I'll follow it, but I have a big problem with what happened here, that it's just been allows to run. We went from non-disruptive (me shutting it down) to disruptive (it running), IMO.
- BTW could you please tell me: I suggested two masters above, and your answer about CU mentioned one of them. Is it also "unrelated" as to the other (o.max/"icewhiz")? Levivich (talk) 14:37, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks @Barkeep49, I will do so. Levivich (talk) 17:02, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- @Valereee @Starship.paint, idk if this is the one you're referring to, but the May 3 RM that ended up at "Gaza genocide" had a move review that ended Aug 22. The new RM (that brought us here) was opened Sep 7, 16 days later. Levivich (talk) 15:34, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- Gee I don't know why more people don't bring AE cases. What could possibly be stopping them? 😂 Levivich (talk) 13:40, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
- Special:Diff/1244541208
Discussion concerning IntrepidContributor
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by IntrepidContributor
As I mentioned to Levivich on my talk page, 1RR does not apply to talk pages and fixing TPO violations. The diffs provided show me reverting the improper removal of an editor's post on a talk page. Their entire complaint here seems to be more about their suspicion that I am a sock of another account. I mainly edit the Russian and Ukrianian wikis and I have never heard of those editors I am accused of being. IntrepidContributor (talk) 18:44, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
- @Selfstudier, if you didn't like WikiFouf's RM, you could have voted against it instead of deleting it. Removing the proposal is a TPO violation and a third editor doing it doesn't make it right. There was an RfC and no moratorium was agreed on page name move requests [56], so you should not be obstructing an uninvolved editor from a good faith attempt. IntrepidContributor (talk) 19:51, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
- @Barkeep49 there have been a number of editors who have objected to the page title since the last RM, and the MR that was closed a month after it. The RM discussion itself was very tight and should have been closed as no consensus, leaving the page name as Gaza genocide allegation or accusation. The MR brought up the fact that at 30 on 30, with three choices of names, the closer should have weighted it according to the similarity in two names Gaza genocide allegation or Gaza genocide accusation. But I don't think this is the right venue to arguing the case for the a new move request, and that should be left to the community. IntrepidContributor (talk) 17:21, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Selfstudier
Regardless of the 1R problem, this is straightforwardly disruptive behavior. There was a well attended recently concluded RM that in addition went through MR and nothing has changed since. Rather than specifying anything new, the presented nomination is chock full of personal opinions such as I wholeheartedly believe that "Gaza genocide" is a premature title and does more harm than good, risking the erosion of public confidence in Wikipedia for a wide swath of the population
and regurgitates everything that was already discussed in the recent RM. Yes there are editors that actively dislike the current title, that is not a sufficient reason to go through all this again.Selfstudier (talk) 18:48, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
Ample opportunity to engage was given to reported editor here and here, instead they chose to edit war and only then the matter was raised here, all within a couple hours, no-one having responded to the RM in the interim. This seems to me, in all the circumstances, to be a proper approach, BM attempt to muddy the water with irrelevant "otherstuff" argumentation notwithstanding. Selfstudier (talk) 16:16, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
I have reverted the revert by a third editor and the RM is now running. Selfstudier (talk) 02:50, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
@ScottishFinnishRadish: Not that it has anything to do with this case but seconding what Levivich says and that's not the first time you have taken out of context "otherstuff" to bolster your argument together with naming me in the process. Quite wrongly in my view. Selfstudier (talk) 14:36, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
Statement by TarnishedPath
Given that there was an RM which was closed on 3 July 2024, endorsed at a move review 22 August 2024 and that there have been three RMs on the article this year, the filling of another RM so soon after the last one had been endorsed by a move review by WikiFouf was disruptive. IntrepidContributor restoring it not just once, but twice, is even more disruptive regardless of whether 1RR applies to talk pages or not. TarnishedPathtalk 11:22, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
@Berchanhimez per WP:TAGTEAM: Tag teaming (sometimes also called an editorial camp or gang, factionalism, or a travelling circus) is a controversial form of meatpuppetry in which editors coordinate their actions to circumvent the normal process of consensus
.
Where's your evidence for coordinated meatpupperty? If you don't have any you need to retract your personal attacks/aspersions. TarnishedPathtalk 07:13, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
I'd like to draw admin attention to IntrepidContributor's comment at Special:Diff/1244972583, in which they engage in personal attacks and aspersion casting against every editor who has voted for a procedural close in the RM at Talk:Gaza genocide#Requested move 7 September 2024 by stating that they are all engaging in "POV pushing or stonewalling". TarnishedPathtalk 09:59, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
I'd further like to draw admin attention to IntrepidContributor's WP:CANVASSING of editors to Talk:Gaza genocide#Requested move 7 September 2024 at Special:Diff/1244837374. When I drew their attention to the fact that they'd engaged in canvassing at Special:Diff/1244979886 and that they should ping all involved editors to remedy their breach of behaviour guidelines they responded at Special:Diff/1244988992 by stating that I should remedy their breach for them. TarnishedPathtalk 12:49, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
Editors constantly making personal attacks and accusations of bad behaviour without providing the slightest bit of evidence is getting rather tiring. It needs to stop. SFR floated the idea of giving short term topic bans to any editor who had done so and at this point I say go for it. Scorch the earth. TarnishedPathtalk 05:02, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
@BilledMammal if you're going to imply hypocrisy in voting in support of a RM which was opened not long after another was closed and then voting procedural close in another RM in similar circumstances you need to demonstrate that editors were aware of that. I certainly wasn't aware of the prior RM for the Israel-Hamas war article and can't be expected to have known given that my contributions to the PIA area is sporadic. What you present shows nothing unless there is something more. TarnishedPathtalk 05:37, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
- @BilledMammal, I don't think it's an absolutely wild suggestion that a lot of editors wouldn't have read each and every comment in such a large discussion. TarnishedPathtalk 05:56, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
- @BilledMammal and why would they have been more likely to read the first comment than the comments further down near where they placed their !vote? TarnishedPathtalk 06:01, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
- @BilledMammal, what you state to be general isn't universal. It's being debated because you are implying the motives of other editors and I happen to be one of those editors. TarnishedPathtalk 06:38, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
- @BilledMammal and why would they have been more likely to read the first comment than the comments further down near where they placed their !vote? TarnishedPathtalk 06:01, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
Statement by BilledMammal
First, there was a consensus against a moratorium on that page.
Second, it was recently established that involved editors shouldn't be shutting down/closing formal discussions that they disagreed with, and should instead go to an admin when the discussion is problematic. I note that one of the parties that shut down this discussion, Selfstudier, participated in that discussion, and so should have been aware of that.
Third, Selfstudier previously objected to involved closes in relation to RM's on that page. As part of that, they were warned against reverting closures, and told to go to an admin in the future.
In general, I think the editors closing this discussion, but especially Selfstudier who has been involved in these issues before and appears to be espousing a double standard, have behaved far below what we expect of editors in a contentious topic. BilledMammal (talk) 12:17, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
- Given the recent comment by David A, particularly their second sentence, I want to call out the obvious POV pushing that is occurring here.
- In this AE, we have a number of editors objecting to opening an RM proposing moving the article to a less definitive title just two months after the previous was closed in favour of the title they supported.
- However, that RM was opened just a month after a previous RM was closed against moving the article to a more definitive title.
- These same editors had no objection to that RM, and some such as David A were instrumental in opening it.
- Effectively, these editors are saying that discussions that propose a change in favour of their POV are allowed, while discussions against their POV are not - and they are using tag-team unilateral involved closures and AE to try to enforce this.
- Such behaviour is a violation of half a dozen policies and I believe AE needs to act against it. BilledMammal (talk) 00:49, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- @David A: Off topic, but I don’t have a position on the reliability of +972, and I don’t express one in the discussion you linked. I also don’t seek to remove all references to Al Jazeera, although I do question its reliability. BilledMammal (talk) 07:25, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- For the editors asking for an example of editors who objected to this move request, but had no objection to others opened within a similar period:
- Talk:Israel–Hamas war/Archive 34#Requested move 23 December 2023 was closed on January 4, and the close was finalized on January 10, with a consensus for "Israel-Hamas war".
- Talk:Israel–Hamas war/Archive 40#Requested move 23 January 2024, which proposed moving the article to "Israel-Gaza war" was opened 19 or 13 days later, depending on where you are counting from. Of the editors objecting to the move request under discussion here:
- Selfstudier (talk · contribs) supported a move on 23 January 2024
- David A (talk · contribs) supported a move on 31 January 2024
- Levivich (talk · contribs) supported a move on 6 February 2024, with their first comment on 24 January 2024
- TarnishedPath (talk · contribs) supported a move on 16 February 2024
- Other editors in this discussion participated in that RM, but as I haven't interpreted their comments as objecting to this move request I haven't included them in this list. There are also a large number of editors who objected to this RM on procedural grounds within the RM, but supported that RM without any objection; I also haven't considered them for this list. BilledMammal (talk) 05:23, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
- @TarnishedPath: The first line of the first !vote in the 23 January 2024 RM (mine, for the record) said
there was a consensus for "Israel-Hamas war" less than two weeks ago.
- Unless these editors aren't reading any of the discussion before !voting, they would have been aware.
- In addition, Selfstudier was indisputably aware of the prior discussion - they participated in an objection to the close of the 23 December 2023 RM. BilledMammal (talk) 05:50, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
- @TarnishedPath: They wouldn't have needed to read
each and every comment
; only the first line of the first comment. BilledMammal (talk) 05:58, 11 September 2024 (UTC)- @TarnishedPath: I'm surprised this is even being debated. In a general context, it is well established that for various reasons comments at the top of a discussion are far more likely to be read than comments at the bottom - and in a Wikipedia context editors need to go to the top of a discussion to click "edit source", not the bottom. BilledMammal (talk) 06:09, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
- @TarnishedPath: They wouldn't have needed to read
- @TarnishedPath: The first line of the first !vote in the 23 January 2024 RM (mine, for the record) said
Statement by WikiFouf
@Selfstudier That's really a bad-faith interpretation. You don't have to agree with the reasoning, but don't pretend like I didn't detail why I think that A) the title is premature and, B) it can erode confidence in WP's neutrality. I don't cite new sources, yes, but that's the whole point : I reviewed all of the sources we do have right now and I disagree with the verdict that 'Gaza genocide' is reflective of the wording used by available reliable sources. Hence why I launched the RM, and encouraged people go through the sources table. I'm not trying to be "disruptive". WikiFouf (talk) 12:28, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Sean.hoyland
It seems likely that ongoing efforts to change the title of the Gaza Genocide (which includes less polite efforts like this) are explained in part by the attention/canvassing occurring off-wiki on social media sites etc. I don't know (or care) whether the concerns are legitimate policy-based concerns, but what also seems likely is that this attention is not dependent on the number or details of the RMs, it is dependent on the result of the RM not being the current title. Unless an RM is guaranteed to result in a change to the title that supporters of Israel find satisfactory, I'm not sure there is any point in having it. Sean.hoyland (talk) 13:23, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
Also, out in the real world, interest in this Gaza Genocide article formed about 1000th of a percent of what people looked at last month in English Wikipedia (amounting to over 10 billion views), so the article title issue does not appear to be an urgent or significant issue from a global statistical perspective. Sean.hoyland (talk) 13:54, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
Just like targeting the title of the Gaza Genocide article is not likely to stop until the correct outcome is obtained, the targeting of Selfstudier is not likely to stop until the correct outcome is obtained, in my view. I find this concerning, not because of anyone's opinions on the Israel-Palestine conflict, but because by my estimation, since the start of 2022, around 1800 of Selfstudier's edits (and probably more) are directly related to implementing/enforcing ArbCom remedies including ARBECR, notifying new users, handling edit requests and creating edit notices. So, this particular user, the topic area's top (non-sock) contributor by edit count (normally a positive thing, but apparently a negative thing in PIA), spent over 12% of their revisions on essentially policing the largely unprotected topic area. For me, it's to be expected that editors will ignore this aspect of an editor they perceive as an obstacle or opponent of some kind, but if admins ignore it the AE process starts to resemble an autoimmune disorder. Sean.hoyland (talk) 15:37, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
Regarding "I think there is a strong case that Levivich should be prohibited from bringing users to AE until a case on those issues is held at ArbCom."
- I don't think this idea has any utility.
- Like it or not, Levivich is one of the topic area's countermeasures to ongoing disruptive activity. They are part of PIA's immune system.
- The statement can therefore be re-expressed as "There is a strong case to disable one of the countermeasures to ongoing disruptive activity in the topic area."
If an editor sees what they regard as disruptive behavior or policy non-compliance in the topic area they should be able to report it here at AE. ArbCom is not going to be able to solve many of the systemic problems in the topic area because the on-site effects are produced by external factors, off-site things they have little to no control over, like whether a person decides to evade a ban, or engage in/respond to canvassing efforts, or allow their personal views to take priority over policy compliance etc. And there is no obvious misalignment between Levivich's stated objectives in their reports and the objectives described by policy and existing ArbCom remedies. They have a much higher resolution view of the state of the topic area than ArbCom is likely to ever have. Sean.hoyland (talk) 06:46, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
- "immense disruption on this noticeboard (and elsewhere)" - this is not what I see. I see an editor documenting what they regard as inconsistencies between actions and rules.
- "It begs the question why Levivich is bringing editors to this venue when others are not thinking to do so." - This is easily explained by friction and a number of other factors. I could bring numerous editors to AE and SPI, and yet I don't, because, for me, the cost/benefit ratio makes it too expensive. There aren't many editors willing to put in the work required to gather evidence and present a case.
Sean.hoyland (talk) 08:29, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
Statement by xDanielx
A new RM might arguably be appropriate now that the closely related RM for the parent, Palestinian genocide accusation → Palestinian genocide, was unsuccessful. In any case, if editors feel it's too hasty, they should request a speedy closure by an uninvolved party, or possibly snowball close it if there's a clear consensus that it's too hasty (which seems unlikely given the consensus against a moratorium). It's really inappropriate for two highly involved editors to simply delete a good-faith RM they don't agree with. — xDanielx T/C\R 17:10, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
Statement by David A
I do not think that Levivich or Selfstudier should receive any punishment. People who disapprove of the current page title keep forcing us to vote over and over and over regarding the same topic, with very brief breaks in-between, until they get their desired result.
It is to demand too much from Levivich and Selfstudier to expect them to know exactly where to draw the line regarding what is or is not allowed in every possible development in this regard.
Also, they are knowledgeable, constructive, and well-behaved editors. Putting them on restraining order for such a limited reason would cause longterm damage to the overall wellbeing of the pages concerning this topic. David A (talk) 19:12, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
In response to accusations by BilledMammal, there does not exist any coordination between myself and other Wikipedia members. We are merely people from different parts of this world who seem to share a humanitarian concern for the unnecessary loss of innocent lives, particularly children, and going by the United Nations recent voting records regarding the currently ongoing military actions by the government of Israel, the vast majority of the population of humanity strongly disapprove of them, so statistically speaking there should logically be a much greater shortage of people in Wikipedia who agree than those who disagree.
Also, I was referring to that this was not the first time that there have been attempts to overturn the recent page title move within a brief timespan, although going by my, possibly flawed, memory, most of them were by new editors to Wikipedia who did not have extended edit-confirmed rights to respond to the Gaza genocide talk page.
In addition, even from my, likely very limited, observations of BilledMammal's own activities here in Wikipedia, he has very actively participated in several attempts to remove all references by both Al Jazeera and +972 Magazine, which are the two main news organisations that report war crimes by the Israeli government. [57] [58] [59] [60]
Also, for the record, I have been subjected to death threats and multiple serious personal attacks from people who support the current military actions of the Israeli government. [61] [62] [63] [64] [65] [66] David A (talk) 07:06, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- @BilledMammal: Okay. My apologies for making a mistake regarding +972 Magazine, but as far as I am aware, disqualifying sources from being considered reliable by Wikipedia allows editors to systematically remove all of them from Wikipedia pages, which in the case of Al Jazeera would severely cripple the reporting from the Gaza war. David A (talk) 07:34, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
@BilledMammal: For the record, all that I recall of the renaming procedure is that the ongoing move discussion was extremely disorganised, lengthy, tiresome, and all over the place, so I assembled the three main titles suggested by other members that were not too long and awkward, and seemed to have good arguments and Wikipedia page title precedents backing them, and then put them to a vote by pinging all of the previous participants in the discussion, in order to help bring some order and structure to the chaos.
There was no deliberation involved beyond that I thought that all of the three alternatives were shorter and less awkward that the then current title for the page, nor did I expect the current title to get the most votes at the time. I do not recall voting in a preceding survey before the very lengthy sprawling discussion that eventually resulted in the current title, but if I did, I probably just voted for what I thought was the least bad available option at the time. David A (talk) 06:11, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
- @BilledMammal: Never mind. It seems like you are talking about a renaming discussion for another page. My adhd unfortunately strikes again. Anyway, I do not recall reading your own quoted comment there. I likely just voted for what seemed to be a less inappropriate title. David A (talk) 06:25, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
I agree with @Sean.hoyland: about that Levivich is a highly knowledgeable member who helps to bring order, structure, and fact-based resolutions to discussions, so getting rid of him would cause active harm to the parts of Wikipedia where he is active, and contrary to @Berchanhimez:'s claims, I think that the attempts to shut up editors who are highly concerned about human rights violations via this arbitration discussion seem considerably more prevalent and concerning. David A (talk) 07:33, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
- @Berchanhimez: As far as I am aware, I have only made fact-based additions to Wikipedia, especially lots of reliable statistics, and do not think that I have made any disruptive behaviour via insults or bad editing. I used my wording as one that seemed neutral, given that there are some editors who are concerned about human rights violations in general, regardless of who is doing them, and others who seem to act in a more partisan manner regarding this topic.
- Absolute objectivity is not an inherent part of human nature. Some people just attempt to systematically hide their subjective traits whereas other are compulsively honest about them, the latter of which is a part of my type of autistic mental condition. However, that does not mean that I have ever made dishonest edits that I know of. I think that I have gone to extremes to attempt to word all my information article page Wikipedia edits in a matter-of-fact neutral manner, make certain that they use reliable sources, and to evaluate all of the available facts regarding this situation before reaching a conclusion. Just because I do have a moral system that says "Over 18,000 dead children and around 1 million starving people = not good", this does not remotely make me a disruptive editor, and I think that people without any such ethical concerns would be considerably more concerning, as a lack of conscience is also a form of bias, and of a far more socially destructive variety. Any viewpoint whatsoever is a bias. It is inherently unavoidable. David A (talk) 08:34, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
@Aquillion: That is correct, yes. There have apparently been recurring cases of public agitation against the work in this page, such as this Reddit thread and multiple negatively worded news articles that are listed at the top of the talk section of this page, with resulting cases of new and completely inexperienced editors causing considerable hostile disturbances. David A (talk) 02:49, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Bluethricecreamman
Will point out the obvious hypocrisy by BilledMammal for forgetting that opening an RM a week or so after move review closed with your team losing is anything other than POV-pushing in the process. Won’t argue against the fact that violating WP:TPO by deleting a discussion isn’t POV-pushing itself by the pro-Pal folks either… I saw the admins saying that ARBPIA states all rules are more especially enforced in this area, but maybe the request for ARBPIA5 could resolve such matters by putting in place much more explicit rules within ARBPIA instead of relying on the entire corpus of wikipedia policy? Bluethricecreamman (talk) 01:38, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
Statement by berchanhimez
I'd like to say I'm surprised to see this. But I'm not. Levivich and other editors are continuing to try to weaponize AE to cover up their own bad activities in pushing their POV. While the last move review was closed as "endorse", the closer was quite clear that that was mostly a "no consensus to overturn (but not necessarily meaning there is a consensus that it was correct and proper)". The closure of the last RM "overturned" what was about a 3-to-2 majority (if not more) for a title other than the now-current one, but because of the actions of some editors (not necessarily here), the closer found a "majority" for the current title. Then editors (some here) bludgeoned the move review to prevent the actual problems with the close from being adequately discussed. And now they're mad that the community is being asked to opine again given the woefully improper close of the last move review that amounts to a supervote.
That all said, since AE has already been unable to take action on a recent report in the area because of the number of users involved and the cross-user issues (tag-teaming, POV pushing, potential off wiki coordination, etc), this report should simply be punted to ARCA as evidence in the already ongoing request for a new arbitration case. Specifically, this case should be used as evidence that Levivich (and others) are attempting to weaponize AE to remove people they disagree with from the topic area so their POV pushing cannot be questioned. Beyond that, the only short term action that should be taken is a prohibition on the most flagrantly abusive users (Levivich coming to mind as making multiple threads here recently) from making AE reports until the conclusion of the arbitration proceedings. If a user is truly problematic, Levivich should be able to trust that someone else can make a report. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 04:34, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- And just to be extremely clear, I disagree completely with Barkeep's message below that he does not consider threatening another user (BilledMammal) on their talk page to be evidence that should be considered here. Levivich is weaponizing AE, and is attempting to get "first mover advantage" by claiming that if they make a report on AE, their own behavior shouldn't be able to be looked at, because they made the report. Should not be allowed whatsoever. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 04:36, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- I will not retract anything, but I will clarify that "their" here was not solely intended as a third-person singular pronoun, but also to cover other editors with whom Levivich frequently tag-teams (whether intentional or not) on reporting editors. As SFR replied on BilledMammal's talk page, it's more than ripe to have the behavior of others involved brought up when evaluating a AE request, because the actions of others influence and inform the evaluation of the reported user. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 05:41, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- Levivich has now taken to claiming that AE shouldn't review the whole circumstances of the situation when a report is made (in other words, that they want a first mover advantage), and claimed that they intend to "appeal" this even further because they think they should be able to own the topic area and have their views on a discussion taken as fact before adequate discussion, making involved closures/removals without repercussions. If this isn't more than enough evidence that Levivich is one of the biggest problems in this topic area on either side of the debate I'm not sure what would be. Textbook disrupting Wikipedia to make a point. I'll say again - if there are disruptive editors there are more than enough other people who can bring those editors to AE. But Levivich's participation in this topic area at this point and especially in AE regarding this topic area is no longer beneficial or constructive - and it's been that way for quite some time. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 03:34, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
- To be extremely clear: I am fine if AE admins choose to punt this to arbcom in conjunction with the recent ARCA request for a new case in the Israel-Palestine conflict area. But do it already - stop giving the guise that anything can (or should) be done here if that's going to be the end result. I think there is a strong case that Levivich should be prohibited from bringing users to AE until a case on those issues is held at ArbCom. They are wasting administrator and other user time at this point. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 03:36, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
- To Sean, I say that the mere fact he is reporting potentially valid disruption does not justify his immense disruption on this noticeboard (and elsewhere). There are plenty of other editors who can continue to bring editors to this noticeboard and discuss them without Levivich's participation/reporting of them. It begs the question why Levivich is bringing editors to this venue when others are not thinking to do so. The mere fact his complaints seem "facially valid" does not justify the disruption they cause, nor the dogpiling they bring. I haven't seen a single case they've brought recently that has been so urgent as to not be able to wait for the ARCA request to start a case. But what it does do is create a chilling effect for editors wishing to participate in this area. If you don't agree with Levivich (et al - those who agree with him and show up quickly to comment on these requests and discussions they start/opine in on talk pages) you risk being taken to AE in an attempt to silence you. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 06:59, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
- @David A: Wikipedia isn't the place to "be concerned about human rights violations". We report facts, not what we want people to hear. Attempting to pass off disruption as okay because you think they're trying to be "right" is the exact sort of disruption that makes us violate our core content policies in this topic area. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 07:49, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
Statement by starship.paint (2)
berchanhimez has utterly misunderstood the situation in their claim that Levivich … is attempting to get "first mover advantage" by claiming that if they make a report on AE, their own behavior shouldn't be able to be looked at, because they made the report. Levivich’s position has been consistent. Less than a month ago, Levivich said: Don't use my [AE] report as an opportunity to bring attention to an unrelated grievance between other people. Please respect the time I put into this. Unless it's about me, or HaOfa, it doesn't really belong in this thread, it belongs in a new one.
Levivich did not mind his own conduct being examined in the same AE thread, he just wanted other editors to be examined in new AE threads. I look forward for berchanhimez's false claim to be retracted. starship.paint (RUN) 04:54, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
@Valereee: - the context was that the 12 January move, [67] [68] explicitly said: This RM is intended specifically to fix the incorrect year disambiguation as soon as possible: a clearly incorrect title shouldn't be left in effect long-term on a heavily viewed page. It is intended without prejudice against any other discussions or requested moves such as regarding changing the "Israel–Hamas war" wording.
This move was closed 20 January 2024. starship.paint (RUN) 14:52, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- @Valereee: - you are correct. There is a May RM that ended in June and which move review ended in
July.starship.paint (RUN) 15:18, 10 September 2024 (UTC)- move review ended in August. My bad, thanks Levivich. starship.paint (RUN) 15:48, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
Statement by PhotogenicScientist
Apologies for the tangent, but I think this is worth clarifying while we're here: The applicability of 1RR to talk pages is not clear from current policy/Arbcom pages.
- Per policy (WP:EW), the three revert rule (and WP:1RR by extension) applies to all "pages",
including those in talk and project spaces.
- Per ArbCom ([69]), 1RR is meant broadly to address article content, and specific talk page 1RR "violations" were deemed to not be violations.
So, 2 questions:
- If ArbCom's standard applies to WP:ARBPIA, would that standard apply to all CTOP talk pages? And to all talk pages generally?
- If the above are true, should WP:3RR be amended to remove the explicit mention of Talk pages?
Thanks. PhotogenicScientist (talk) 16:08, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- @Barkeep49 if that decision is binding, then can WP:3RR be summarily updated, on that basis? PhotogenicScientist (talk) 17:55, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- @Barkeep49 that separation I (vaguely) understand. Though, the ArbCom 1RR sanction appears to be documented here, where "revert restrictions" links directly to the section with WP:1RR. And in that section, 1RR is explicitly defined as being analogous to 3RR with a few specific changes (none of which mention excepting Talk pages).
- So, can the WP:EW#Other revert rules section be modified to reflect the ArbCom decision? It's on a policy page, but that section starts off saying its material is from ArbCom. PhotogenicScientist (talk) 18:26, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Aquillion
Regarding the suggestions for mass topic bans - I do want to point out that the disruption in this topic area is ultimately coming from external sources and is the result of a broader conflicts outside of Wikipedia. While many editors are behaving in a subpar manner, that's not the root issue here; and despite their sniping, most of these editors are experienced enough to know and follow at least the basic outline of how we do things. I'm concerned that broad topic-bans could remove those experienced editors while leaving a bunch of new / inexperienced ones who would continue the same conflicts without the same knowledge of our policies and procedures. Obviously warnings and such are needed and people who don't improve or who are obviously part of the problem need to be removed, but topic-banning basically all the highly-active experienced users in a topic area that is seeing substantial external disruption is probably something to be avoided if possible. --Aquillion (talk) 15:57, 20 September 2024 (UTC)
Statement by (username)
Result concerning IntrepidContributor
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- I'll probably circle back to the substance of this report but from a CU perspective IntrepitContributor is technically
Unrelated to Wierzba. Barkeep49 (talk) 15:52, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
- Turns out I circled back faster than I had anticipated. IntrepidContributor can you please address the substance of why you are restoring the RM, not just why it is/isn't 1RR, and why it is not disruptive. Namely, why a new move discussion is appropriate now given that the previous move review closed 17 days ago. Barkeep49 (talk) 16:33, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
- I'm unimpressed with Intrepid's response, which has large elements of "I don't agree with the consensus so I'm going to try again and see if I can get my consensus." While I am sympathetic to the idea that the MR closed a month after the move discussion itself and that this is a developing situation,
the idea that consensus can change does not allow for the same point being brought up repeatedly over a short period of time and/or in multiple venues in an attempt to shift consensus
[70]. I also continue to have concerns, as I expressed in May with editors reverting formal discussions - such as moves or RfCs - in order to shut them down. Now that May discussion also clarifies that 1RR does not apply here but that doesn't mean that I don't find some behavior here troubling. I'll wait to see if any other admins post thoughts before stating what specific outcome I favor. Barkeep49 (talk) 19:34, 8 September 2024 (UTC)- @Levivich has the RM been closed? Or was the RM simply reverted so no one knew it was attempted? I was in favor of closing the RM which I note in the comment above. When Selfstudier decided to revert SN, I nearly procedurally closed it myself. If another uninvolved administrator is thinking about closing it, I would support them doing so. Barkeep49 (talk) 14:27, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- @Levivich I did not check the account against Icewhiz. You're welcome to ask for that to be done at SPI. Barkeep49 (talk) 16:50, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- @Levivich has the RM been closed? Or was the RM simply reverted so no one knew it was attempted? I was in favor of closing the RM which I note in the comment above. When Selfstudier decided to revert SN, I nearly procedurally closed it myself. If another uninvolved administrator is thinking about closing it, I would support them doing so. Barkeep49 (talk) 14:27, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- @PhotogenicScientist I think this answers your questions (decided by ArbCom itself rather than AE so it is more binding). Barkeep49 (talk) 16:55, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- PhotogenicScientist, 1rr is an arbitration sanction, 3rr is a community policy. Two different things. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:03, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- PS: ArbCom can't make policy. It can only make decisions within its remit. Which includes this conflict and 1RR. So the decision to update the policy page is up to the community to include (or not). Barkeep49 (talk) 18:03, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- Up to the community about updating that or not. So if you're interested I'd read WP:PGCHANGE about what that looks like. Barkeep49 (talk) 19:23, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- I'm unimpressed with Intrepid's response, which has large elements of "I don't agree with the consensus so I'm going to try again and see if I can get my consensus." While I am sympathetic to the idea that the MR closed a month after the move discussion itself and that this is a developing situation,
- First, I'm in agreement with Barkeep that the 1RR question is adequately addressed by Arbcom, and there is no violation here. This is very similar to a repeat of the May report specifically dealing with involved editors vetoing consensus establishing processes. In that report we issued a final warning for exactly what Levivich and Selfstudier did here, and it was clear that such involved closures were inappropriate. Although the RM didn't bring anything new to the table, this is not an uncommon situation in the topic area. Selfstudier supported a RM three days after the closure of a prior RM, and even if they disagreed with the RM procedurally, they should understand that editors often disagree about when another RM is appropriate. Gaza genocide has been through several recent RMs in close proximity so another, though not great, isn't so flagrantly out of process, e.g. started by a non-EC editor, that heavily involved editors should have stepped in. This should have been brought to AN or an uninvolved administrator, or at the absolute least brought up at the editor's talk page.With the unrelated result of CU we're looking at an extended-confirmed editor in good standing who opened a RM two months after the prior request that, while as Barkeep pointed out doesn't really bring anything new, isn't wildly malformed or procedurally flawed beyond repeating a two-month old discussion. Involved editors do not have veto power on discussions that they believe are occurring too close to another recent discussion, or any other formal process. This was already widely agreed upon at AE. That two editors who are taking part in a discussion about involvement and involved actions in this specific topic area would think that this reversion was acceptable is surprising to say the least. Additionally, simply believing that someone is a sockpuppet doesn't free us of WP:AGF, and contributions can not be reverted simply on suspicion of sockpuppetry.In my view the shutting down of a discussion started by an extended confirmed editor in good standing by two involved editors is more of an issue than starting an RM too soon after the last one. WP:SNOW or WP:AN exist for this situation. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 20:25, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
- SFR: I'm not being glib here: are you saying that the "trout" noted in the closing summary was in actuality a final warning? Barkeep49 (talk) 20:29, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
- Makeandtoss received a final warning for closing the rfc. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 20:36, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
- OK. I understand now. I suggest a warning for IC and Selfstudier, and maybe even a narrow topic ban on closing/reverting formal discussions for Selfstudier. I don't see the same history for Levivich and I see attempts to use our processes so I don't see a need for a warning about the conduct in this complaint (which I do not consider this message a part of). Barkeep49 (talk) 20:49, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
- I don't see a functional difference between a warning not to close discussions you're involved in and a topic ban. The result of doing it again is likely to be the same. so I think a warning is fine in that instance. A more sternly worded reminder that editors should not be closing or removing consensus establishing discussions when they are heavily involved might be in order, as well. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:26, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
- That all makes sense to me. I do want to note the general warning will only carry so far - for instance I would not expect everyone in the topic area (even "regulars" at this forum) to see the message. Barkeep49 (talk) 14:43, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
- To be honest, I don't think we should even have to give such a general warning/reminder, because that is covered in WP:CTOP and the alert pretty much every editor in ARBPIA has received or given.
Within contentious topics, you must edit carefully and constructively, refrain from disrupting the encyclopedia, and... comply with all applicable policies and guidelines; follow editorial and behavioural best practice
. This type of behavior shouldn't need a warning, because WP:INVOLVED and WP:TPG already cover it in detail, and editors must comply with all applicable policies and guidelines and follow best practices. Why are we making sure everyone gets a notification that they must do this if we're just going to warn for violating PAGs? So, I guess what I mean about a more sternly worded reminder is saying that this already prohibited behavior will be sanctioned if it occurs in the future. We don't need to hand out any more individual warnings for this, because everyone with a CTOP alert has already been put on notice. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:37, 9 September 2024 (UTC) - Barkeep49, do you have any appetite to topic ban (for 90 days or so?) everyone who cast broad aspersions in this report, or otherwise did not
edit carefully and constructively, refrain from disrupting the encyclopedia, and... comply with all applicable policies and guidelines; follow editorial and behavioural best practice.
? That might be enough time for an Arb case to get started, or some subs from the bench to make their way onto the committee. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:46, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- To be honest, I don't think we should even have to give such a general warning/reminder, because that is covered in WP:CTOP and the alert pretty much every editor in ARBPIA has received or given.
- That all makes sense to me. I do want to note the general warning will only carry so far - for instance I would not expect everyone in the topic area (even "regulars" at this forum) to see the message. Barkeep49 (talk) 14:43, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
- I don't see a functional difference between a warning not to close discussions you're involved in and a topic ban. The result of doing it again is likely to be the same. so I think a warning is fine in that instance. A more sternly worded reminder that editors should not be closing or removing consensus establishing discussions when they are heavily involved might be in order, as well. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:26, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
- OK. I understand now. I suggest a warning for IC and Selfstudier, and maybe even a narrow topic ban on closing/reverting formal discussions for Selfstudier. I don't see the same history for Levivich and I see attempts to use our processes so I don't see a need for a warning about the conduct in this complaint (which I do not consider this message a part of). Barkeep49 (talk) 20:49, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
- Makeandtoss received a final warning for closing the rfc. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 20:36, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
- SFR: I'm not being glib here: are you saying that the "trout" noted in the closing summary was in actuality a final warning? Barkeep49 (talk) 20:29, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
- @Aoidh, Cabayi, Guerillero, HJ Mitchell, Moneytrees, Primefac, Sdrqaz, ToBeFree, and Z1720: here we have another case where at first blush there is one issue to address that AE could probably handle, but it turns out we have multiple editors involved here that have !voted with no procedural objections in RMs opened within days after earlier RMs closing, or been part of opening such RMs. Editors from across the spectrum can't help but to show up and accuse each other of bad faith editing, to make bad faith accusations that everyone supporting an option in an RM are
People who apparently support Israel's current military actions
, to demand other editors not take part in AE proceedings, or claim that editor misbehavior in the RM and MR led to a POV issue with an article title. No one seems to think their aspersions or personal attacks are the same as the aspersions and personal attacks other people cast, and this shitshow happens pretty much every time we end up here for any but the most obvious behavioral issues with new or inexperienced editors. There aren't enough AE admins to be expected to take the brunt of the fallout from any significant action, if there is even consensus for anything. Can we maybe put the scoot on getting a case started? ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:42, 10 September 2024 (UTC)- TarnishedPath, I've pinged the few others from those discussions and given an only warning for canvassing. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:54, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- Levivich, Closed 19 January, New RM opened on the 24th, Selfstudier, David A Levivich. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:26, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- So there's also Closed 13 February, new RM 29 February, David A, BilledMammal.
- Both of those RMs had no prejudice towards another RM, as did the RM at the center of this report, which had a consensus against a moratorium. We're, again, looking at standard behavior in the topic area. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:59, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- Also, if we're looking at the reasoning behind the move, that RM on 29 February was spurred by this, which is about as "there was no consensus for the name I wanted, but I disagree with the previous close" as it gets. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:06, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- SFR, I'd need to see the context for multiple editors involved here that have !voted with no procedural objections in RMs opened within days after earlier RMs closing. Valereee (talk) 14:40, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- I looked through this filing and the comments from other editors ... and I have to agree with SFR - the accusations are certainly piling up here. From a quick read ... the following statements stood out to me as being less than optimal (in fact, often completely useless) in helping to resolve issues:
- "Their entire complaint here seems to be more about their suspicion that I am a sock of another account"
- "attempt to muddy the water with irrelevant "otherstuff" argumentation"
- "People who apparently support Israel's current military actions"
- "and they are using tag-team unilateral involved closures and AE to try to enforce this"
- "That's really a bad-faith interpretation"
- "this is straightforwardly disruptive behavior"
- "obvious hypocrisy by BilledMammal for forgetting that opening an RM a week or so after move review closed with your team losing is anything other than POV-pushing in the process"
- "Levivich and other editors are continuing to try to weaponize AE to cover up their own bad activities in pushing their POV"
- "editors (some here) bludgeoned the move review to prevent the actual problems with the close from being adequately discussed"
- Note I didn't link these to specific editors because they are examples of the continual low-level sniping, accusations, and off-topic digressions that continually interfere with non-involved admins ability to get to the bottom of issues. I get it that the real world war is inflaming passions all around. But it doesn't help the issue here on wiki if we tolerate this sort of sniping/off-topic digressions/etc. Ideally, all editors would agree to dial things back, and at least try to pretend to pay lip-service to the ideals of editing here. Unfortunately, I think its gone on too long and I certainly can't say that I have any intention of opening myself up to actually taking action in this CT - because why should I expose myself as a target of this level of constant sniping? Why do folks think this is what editors should be acting like? I don't like the idea of treating everyone in this CT like a toddler who needs to be sent to time-out, but honestly - what other choices do non-involved admins have? The best way to discuss things is to not discuss what you think the motivations of other editors are, but rather to engage with sources and facts. None of the above examples do that - and frankly, until that type of editing goes away .. nothing will improve in the CT.
- As to the actual original complaint about breaking 1RR, Barkeep and SFR discussed this above. All the other stuff about possible sockpuppetry in the original complaint - that should have gone to SPI, which is the correct venue for handling possible sockpuppetry. (I note that Barkeep ruled it as the two accounts being unrelated on technical reasons) All the extraneous commentary from many other editors above ... is pretty much useless. So, we're left with - nothing. We can close this without addressing the other issues, as the one complaint that was suitable for this venue appears to have been decided as not a problem - if I'm reading the statements by Barkeep and SFR correct? While I might like to see something done about the digressions by everyone and the kitchen sink, I don't have the bandwith right now to topic ban everyone on my own admin authority nor do I care to deal with the nasty fallout I can see as likely in my future if I did such a thing. Close this and wait for the inevitable next time when we go through this same cycle again. Ealdgyth (talk) 14:04, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- There were some warnings above that Barkeep and I were roughly in consensus about, although as I asked above, do you have any appetite to topic ban (for 90 days or so?) everyone who cast broad aspersions in this report, or otherwise did not
edit carefully and constructively, refrain from disrupting the encyclopedia, and... comply with all applicable policies and guidelines; follow editorial and behavioural best practice.
? That might be enough time for an Arb case to get started, or some subs from the bench to make their way onto the committee. We can do that with a rough consensus here without having a lone admin eat the inevitable dozen hours of shit at all the appeals. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:10, 10 September 2024 (UTC)- I could get behind topic bans imposed by a consensus of admins here, although I really wish that we didn't have to treat other editors like toddlers. Ealdgyth (talk) 14:12, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- ArbCom has a procedure for temporary injunctions to handle the kind of situation described above. I am opposed to AE usurping that authority for itself. I remain open to the warning expressed above. Barkeep49 (talk) 14:30, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- No, I don't have the appetite for tbans all around. That feels punitive. Valereee (talk) 14:42, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- @TarnishedPath, Scorch the earth usually causes a lot of collateral damage. For instance, battleground language could get caught up in it as well. Valereee (talk) 10:32, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
- I could get behind topic bans imposed by a consensus of admins here, although I really wish that we didn't have to treat other editors like toddlers. Ealdgyth (talk) 14:12, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- There were some warnings above that Barkeep and I were roughly in consensus about, although as I asked above, do you have any appetite to topic ban (for 90 days or so?) everyone who cast broad aspersions in this report, or otherwise did not
- No opinion on whether this is the wrong venue for 1RR in this case, but starting a new RM that quickly simply because you disagree with the previous one is clearly disruptive, and I do think 1RR should apply here. Valereee (talk) 14:47, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- We could choose as AE to impose 1RR on that talk page going forward, but I don't think we can decide the previous reverts were a 1RR violation. Barkeep49 (talk) 15:02, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- Yeah, I get it. I missed the discussion, but I'd have said reverts on talk pages at CTs are disruptive enough, too. Not going to reopen that recent discussion. :D Valereee (talk) 15:05, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- Starship, there was an RM that ended in June here that was endorsed in a move review at the end of July -- am I reading incorrectly? Valereee (talk) 15:04, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- NM, I realize you were responding to a post above, sorry! The context there was the closure itself, which actually invited another RM. Valereee (talk) 15:15, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- @Berchanhimez, re: It begs the question why Levivich is bringing editors to this venue when others are not thinking to do so. There's a work factor, a knowledge factor, and a risk factor that might prevent others from wanting to mess with AE. The fact someone is more willing to do it is not necessarily evidence of disruption by them. It may simply be they're the only one with both the capacity and the will. Valereee (talk) 11:06, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
- We could choose as AE to impose 1RR on that talk page going forward, but I don't think we can decide the previous reverts were a 1RR violation. Barkeep49 (talk) 15:02, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- I find myself unimpressed with the behavior of several participants here. As Ealdgyth notes, the ad homimen snipes serve only to raise the temperature. Socking has been ruled out and 1RR appears to be a non-issue, which doesn't leave much that is actionable. I am opposed to TBANs at this time; it feels disproportionate to the conduct here. I would support logged warnings. The CTOP restrictions do lay out behavioral expectations, but only in the most general terms. I would make a warning explicit as to the behavior that we find to be a problem. For me, in this case, it is the venue-inappropriate sniping, but particularly the bludgeoning of a process in violation of procedural convention when the outcome is not to your liking, or alternatively the use of procedural fine points to shut down a discussion when a previous outcome was to your liking. As far as I can tell many users have engaged in this behavior, on both "sides", and it isn't acceptable in any case. That said, I want to flag a concern with my colleagues' comments above. Sometimes there isn't anything differentiating parties in a dispute, and the appropriate response is either mass sanctions or an ARBCOM referral: but sometimes a single user's behavior is very clearly actionable, because they are pushing the envelope further than any others. I don't want us to get in the habit of taking no action, or taking mass actions, simply because multiple parties have shown sub-par behavior. If we sanction one party in a dispute, the others are still free to file AE reports on each other - we are in no way obligated to deal with all the disruption at once. Vanamonde93 (talk) 15:06, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- I definitely agree with the approach Vanamonde suggests in the second paragraph. Though admittedly I'm not sure who all that means would get a warning (where the 1st paragraph seems to be going). Per the
I don't want us to get in the habit of taking no action, or taking mass actions, simply because multiple parties have shown sub-par behavior. If we sanction one party in a dispute, the others are still free to file AE reports on each other
note I'd still favor logged warnings for Selfstudier and IC as an appropriate close out of this. Barkeep49 (talk) 16:53, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- I definitely agree with the approach Vanamonde suggests in the second paragraph. Though admittedly I'm not sure who all that means would get a warning (where the 1st paragraph seems to be going). Per the
- Just noting that I have closed the RM. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:53, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- @ScottishFinnishRadish, Vanamonde93, Valereee, and Ealdgyth: is there any appetite for any sanction out of this report? The most concrete proposal - topic bans all around - has no support. But I do so see some consesnus that there were conduct violations here so just closing it as no action doesn't seem to reflect the consensus any better. Barkeep49 (talk) 21:02, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
- Warning for starting another RM without any new reasoning shortly after the last closed. Warnings for removing the RM as an involved party, and for not discussing with the editor that stated the RM first. Warning for edit warring over the removal of the new RM. Warnings all around for battleground behavior. Lastly, a raise for us. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 22:27, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
- I am supportive of each of those warnings. I have not made an exhaustive list of which editors raised the temperature via ad hominem commentary, but that seems to me to be deserving of a warning. I'm honestly inclined to word that last as a reminder - not logged- and apply it to all parties to this report. Vanamonde93 (talk) 22:59, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
- Frankly, how many times have folks here been warned for some of this? But, if that's the best we can agree on, I can support that. I really wish that warnings didn't feel totally toothless and ineffectual. Ealdgyth (talk) 22:58, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
- My quick check of the log earlier this week said there hasn't been warnings about this for the people involved her I found troubling. As such I support SFR's path as well. Barkeep49 (talk) 15:42, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
- No objections to warnings others think are appropriate. Valereee (talk) 12:44, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
- Warning for starting another RM without any new reasoning shortly after the last closed. Warnings for removing the RM as an involved party, and for not discussing with the editor that stated the RM first. Warning for edit warring over the removal of the new RM. Warnings all around for battleground behavior. Lastly, a raise for us. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 22:27, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
- We'll double your current salary, ScottishFinnishRadish. Other than that, I think that's a reasonable solution. Seraphimblade Talk to me 14:21, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
- Just noting what David A and Aquillion are referring to above is happening currently at Talk:Zionism where multiple experienced editors, cooperating pretty well with one another, are dealing with multiple EC editors who appear to have been recruited into the article from outrage in social media and Israeli press. The article had to be full-protected for a day, and even with the talk page semi'd the disruption is ongoing from editors with thousands to tens of thousands of edits who have never edited the page before and aren't familiar with sourcing in a contentious topic. Valereee (talk) 16:36, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
IOHANNVSVERVS
IOHANNVSVERVS is formally warned against edit warring and violating WP:1RR in the Palestine-Israel topic area. Barkeep49 (talk) 17:09, 12 September 2024 (UTC) | ||||
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. | ||||
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning IOHANNVSVERVS
Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Palestine-Israel articles 4
The sequence of reverts:
Note the 1RR violation on 2024-08-15. Nableezy requested a self-revert; IOHANNVSVERVS didn't reply. The pattern of dismissive replies, sometimes with links to WP:IDHT or WP:CIR, is also frustrating. For example, 2024-08-13 and 2024-08-13 were perfunctory replies which didn't meaningfully engage with the concerns raised about sourcing. Several such concerns were never really answered. Edit warring without more substantive engagement makes it difficult to reach an understanding or compromise.
N/A
@Ealdgyth and ScottishFinnishRadish: An RFC might make sense, but here at AE I'm not asking for a resolution to the content dispute, which I will probably WP:LETGO. Rather I'm requesting enforcement, at least of 1RR since it's a brightline rule, to ensure that future content disputes can proceed on a fair playing field. I'll try to file more expediently next time (I had a busy few weeks IRL), but I didn't think there was that much time sensitivity around incidents with conduct policies. — xDanielx T/C\R 19:31, 10 September 2024 (UTC) I was hoping to keep this report simple, and avoid dragging admins into the content dispute. Since I've now been accused of POV-pushing, I'm inclined to respond, but I'm not sure it's really relevant to this request so I'll collapse it. If editors genuinely think I've committed sanctionable POV-pushing, I think a separate request would be the better venue. Here it seems like a distraction, since even if the accusation had merit, it wouldn't excuse the conduct that's the subject of this report. — xDanielx T/C\R 05:32, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
@SashiRolls: I already acknowledged the more explicit Khalidi 88 source in my (collapsed) summary above. I was summarizing events chronologically; that source was added later. As I mentioned, it's too old for a "Present scholarship" section - it's a 1988 paper which summarizes Segev's 1984 (so 40 year old) book. Please cut out the sarcasm. — xDanielx T/C\R 15:54, 11 September 2024 (UTC) @SashiRolls: regarding the source you highlighted, such vague language (
Discussion concerning IOHANNVSVERVSStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by IOHANNVSVERVSI will respond shortly. Please don't close this thread. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 21:28, 10 September 2024 (UTC) Do I have permission to exceed 500 words? IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 21:57, 10 September 2024 (UTC) Thank you, @Barkeep49. Here is my statement [71]. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 22:24, 10 September 2024 (UTC) @Barkeep49, I'll note that most (~1000 words?) of my statement is taken up by summarizing and explaing diffs, including quotations of the content which was in dispute and being added or removed in each edit. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 22:35, 10 September 2024 (UTC) Just to clarify, the reason I didn't think I violated 1RR at the time, and why I'm still not sure if I've done so, is because in the first revert [72] I restored both a change to the lead and a sentence beginning "present day scholarship". In the second revert [73] I did not restore the lead change (per 1RR), and though I again restored the "present day scholarship" sentence, I did so while also adding an additional citation. So it wasn't just a revert but I also changed the content. This additional source was added to address Alaexis' objection that "Indeed there is no doubt that the Israeli armed forces drove out many of the Palestinians, but how does it follow from this that "violence and direct expulsions perpetrated by Zionist forces [was] the primary cause of the displacement of the Palestinians"?"[74] (emphasis in original) The citation I added said "Segev's was the first account published in book form to use the Israeli archives to show that mass expulsions of the Palestinians by the Zionist forces, before May 15, 1948, and in succeeding months by the Israeli army, were the main cause of their flight." Note that the edit of Alaexis that I (partially) reverted had only an edit summary of "no consensus, see the issues at the talk". So I wasn't just repeating the same edit/reversion, but I substantially changed the content by also adding that citation, addressing what was Alaexis' primary objection on the talk page at the time. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 05:45, 11 September 2024 (UTC) @Barkeep49, regarding "If you have concerns about other editors' conducts you are able to file separate AE requests for them." - I really don't understand how AE works in this regard. I could have sworn WP:BOOMERANG was a thing and that "we're going to look at the entire situation when assessing AE reports. Bringing up the behavior of an editor that was party to a specific dispute is expected."[75] Anyways, I'm a Wikipedia editor not a Wikipedia prosecutor; I have little interest in filing a separate report. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 17:29, 11 September 2024 (UTC) @Barkeep49 "I was referring to the fact that your sandbox (at least from my skim) was alleging misconduct by multiple other editors." The others I accused are parties to this specific dispute. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 19:13, 11 September 2024 (UTC) Statement by AndrevanI agree with the comments by xDanielx. 2 weeks is certainly not too stale to consider, so I would humbly request admins do not discard that evidence. I recently had an interaction with this user here where they in my opinion, expressed a wrong and confused perspective about reliable sourcing and my responsibility to inform them of changes. While the conversation was quite civil, I think they might need a refresher on Wikipedia policy on ownership of articles and the responsibility of sourcing, verifiability not truth and so on. Andre🚐 19:28, 10 September 2024 (UTC) Statement by Levivich
Statement by SashiRollsAfter detailed reading of the complaint, it becomes clear that pillars #2 (NPOV) and #4 (civility = no editwarring) were violated by repeated removal of well-sourced DUE content. This complaint seeks to penalize the defendant for unplugging the chainsaw being used to fell the pillars without using proper BritelineTM safety gloves.-- SashiRolls 🌿 · 🍥 23:56, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
The original text added on 30 June that xDanielx repeatedly removed contained the following: @XDanielx: I'm sure it has escaped the attention of absolutely nobody that Benny Morris is name-checked no fewer than 45 times in the entry. This does not explain why you began edit-warring to remove a different POV than Mr. Morris' starting on 13 Aug. Your claim that "what happened in 1948" is vague in the context of this source is quite simply false. "What happened in 1948" had already been clearly exposed earlier in the same section on Nakba denial: Statement by Alaexis@Vanamonde93:, just wanted to respond to your comment below. You're right that my edit summary wasn't well phrased. What I intended to say was that the provided sources do not support the change but now that I re-read it I can see that what I wrote was different. I'll make sure I'll do better in future especially in the IP area. Alaexis¿question? 21:19, 11 September 2024 (UTC) Result concerning IOHANNVSVERVS
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Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Ecpiandy
There is no consensus for repealing the topic ban at this time, but some administrators expressed an openness to doing so in the future after there was more time editing without problems. Barkeep49 (talk) 16:51, 20 September 2024 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear and substantial consensus of uninvolved administrators" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action. To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).
Statement by EcpiandyI was unaware of recent Wiki rules in relation to 1RR on Palestine articles and was not actively checking my talk page; I am a long-standing good faith Wikipedia editor of more than 10 years now there won't be any more issues on articles related to this (or any) topic going forward, you can see through my historic time here I attempt to contribute to articles in a positive way. If it is possible to get a second opportunity to participate in articles relating to this topic I would be grateful; lots of the time it just for simple things like updating statistics rather than attempting to be involved in any debate. Statement by ScottishFinnishRadish (Ecpiandy appeal)I warned them for edit warring here and two days later they continued to edit war and then canvassed another editor to help them continue the edit war. Then in early August they violated their topic ban several times, which I blocked them for. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 20:32, 10 September 2024 (UTC) Statement by (involved editor 1)Statement by (involved editor 2)Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by EcpiandyStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by (uninvolved editor 1)Statement by (uninvolved editor 2)Result of the appeal by Ecpiandy
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Colin
A consensus of administrators warns Colin against further uses of inflammatory language in this topic area. There was also a rough consensus among uninvolved administrators that there may need to be other AE requests to handle other problems raised during this discussion. Barkeep49 (talk) 20:51, 16 September 2024 (UTC) Editors in this area are reminded to assume good faith in other contributors. Amending per discussion with other involved admins. Vanamonde93 (talk) 00:44, 17 September 2024 (UTC) | ||||
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. | ||||
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Colin
Colin has severe issues regarding GENSEX topics in a UK context. Oftentimes when a source written by the British government regarding transgender topics is added, some editors will - while agreeing that the source merits inclusion in the article - nonetheless discuss its due weight and neutrality, often citing the UK govt’s record of targeted human rights abuses against trans people (as documented by the UN and the Council of Europe), as well as citing criticisms by reliable orgs against the particular source in question (the widespread MEDORG criticism of the Cass Review for instance). Colin’s response on this topic is often to come in and deliberately misrepresent anything less than total deference as a personal March 20 2024 July 2 2024 ‘You, personally, are American, so you don’t get to criticize British government sources’ along with aspersions. March 19 2024 June 4 2024 Absolute tirades against YFNS, containing pretty much everything but the kitchen sink. March 19 2024 Telling other editors to save their editorial opinions for a blog, aspersions of bigotry against the British, accusations of bad faith, accusations of editing in service of September 11 2024 Calling the use of the term “trans kids” June 22 2024 Calling everyone who shares YFNS' points April 9 2024 July 18 2024 July 4 2024 July 20 2024 Aspersions of bigotry against the British + accusations of bad faith against Hist and myself (I was saying that if someone wikilinks “Gender exploratory therapy” and it redirects to the GET section of the conversion therapy page, that’s not a bigoted edit. He considered that me making it personal for some reason? I've never been through conversion therapy) March 20 2024
Mass accusations of bad faith and bigotry against the British, aspersions of being from ( March 20 2024 April 9 2024 April 25 2024 April 21 2024 Accusations of bad faith. April 13 2024
July 23, 2024 Miscellaneous aspersions. March 20 2024July 10 2024 Personal attacks. I don't know what the best solution is. But I do know that this behavior makes it exponentially more difficult to collaborate constructively. I tried saying as much on his page on May 9th, but he quickly turned it into a discussion on our personally held views regarding transphobia in the UK which I abandoned once it was clear this wouldn't change anything.
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Requesting word + diff extension Edit @User:Colin YFNS uses she/they pronouns, not he/him Edit 2 For whatever it’s worth, I would like to acknowledge that my own behavior does need improvement, and it’s something that I intend to work towards. Edit 3 User:Barkeep49User:Vanamonde93 since this is proving a matter of some discussion, I’d like to note that I intended the use of single apostrophes without tq as a means of paraphrasing, not as a direct quote. Do with that info as you will.
Discussion concerning ColinStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by ColinThere's text in quotes and green attributed to me but that I didn't write. And it seems most times Snokalok has confused me attacking the authors of weak sources and claimed those words were directed at editors, which would be clear with careful reading in context. -- Colin°Talk 08:19, 12 September 2024 (UTC) The Cass Review was commissioned and published by NHS England. It in turn commissioned two systematic reviews by NICE and published here. Subsequently seven systematic reviews were commissioned from the York University Centre for Reviews and Disemination. Those were published here in the Archives of Disease in Childhood. These systematic reviews, which form the evidence-base for the Cass Review, have been repeatedly attacked on the basis that they are from the UK, and thus prejudged transphobic, and should be no more considered reliable than if they were published by the government of Putin's Russia: here, here and here. I have not accused any editor of xenophobia but have repeatedly complained that xenophobic comments have been made to dismiss these top tier sources. As others have noted, this happens elsewhere on Gensex topics. It seems unlikely, does it not, that this British transphobia has infected not just Dr Cass, chosen to chair an independent review as "a senior clinician with no prior involvement or fixed views in this area", but the NICE team, the eight world-class researchers at York and the editor and peer reviewers of the Archives of Disease in Childhood. This comment repeats internet disinformation that the Cass Review excluded transgender health experts. This post on YFNS talk page is in response to this post which repeats an internet conspiracy theory that the Cass Review was actually ghost-written by a secret cabal of evil gender-critical feminists in cahoots with Ron DeSantis. If only someone would tell the Academy of Medical Royal Colleges, the British Psychological Society, the Royal College of Psychiatrists, the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health, the Royal College of General Practitioners, NHS England and NHS Scotland, who enthusiastically support the Cass Review and are in the process of implementing it. It seems, given some of the comments posted, I haven't been clear enough that I'm enthusiastically attacking the authors of an awful source, rather than editors. I'm more than keen to learn from the admins how I might have wiser responded to this or that post, but I don't think this venue, with its opening post of mischaracterised diffs, and quotes and green text that I didn't actually say, is a great place for that. YFNS claims I am here to provide a "knee-jerk defense of the Cass Review", and WAID notes that there's a US-politics battle to discredit the Cass Review. I'm not concerned with that battle. I'm concerned that medical matters on Wikipedia stick to the highest MEDRS sources, and don't repeat disinformation and conspiracy theories, from whatever side makes them. -- Colin°Talk 23:47, 12 September 2024 (UTC) Wrt Loki's "ridiculous and inflammatory accusation", I didn't make any of that up. It is all there in the sources YFNS cites above and in in their talk page response. The "ghostwritten" part comes from this post on my talk page by Snokalok where they describe their "side" as "This paper was put together by numerous names listed as major figures in fringe group SEGM who have expressed some wildly bigoted views on trans people in the past and have taken an active role in conservative politics, therefore it is not reliable evidence" and later refer to it as "a theoretically top MEDRS source that was ghostwritten by a fringe medical org". But they are referring to the same conspiracy theory as YFNS. There is no reliable evidence that "SEGM and Genspect were[] involved at almost every step of the process". Every step? Wrt YFNS accusation of misogynistic language, I recall YFNS told me they didn't do twitter, so may be unaware that Horton's twitter handle is "@FierceMum". Their language. I joined Wikipedia 19 years ago to edit medical articles as "someone's dad". I'm frequently reminded of the limitations of "parent" as a medical qualification. Horton is an activist, with no medical or clinical research background, whose body of research consists of interviewing their social media circle. And yet editors cite their opinion as though stronger than our systematic reviews and all the learned bodies in the UK, as though, at the very top of the MEDRS source quality pyramid, above the nine systematic reviews Cass commissioned, lies "Activist Opinion". -- Colin°Talk 09:27, 13 September 2024 (UTC) Vanamonde93 I have the greatest respect for you three admins so please take what I say in that light. Have a look at the state of the AE request when I commented more fully. I have 500 words to respond to 20 diffs from Snokalok which, as Barkeep acknowledges, are full of misquotes and characterising my words in the worst possible light. And at the bottom of the page, I have three admins making comments like "some of the diffs I've looked at concern me" and "there is a lot of poor conduct too. Unnecessarily inflammatory comments, aspersions, and the kind of generalized aspersions" and "language raises the temperature" and "need to take a look at their own behavior" and "treating it as a battleground is a problem, and us-vs-them language". Every one of these comments are undiffed, and if made by any other editor at this venue, would be met with stern warning, as Barkeep did to Licks-rocks, of "behavioral expectations (such as criticism without diffs..". Do I argue with these opinions? No, they are fair. I respond that I would be "more than keen" to have a discussion with any one of you about my tone and language, but at another venue. I was unaware that it was expected that I explicitly acknowledge my sins vs respectfully listen to what you guys have to say when you examine the diffs, which I certainly have. Of course my post to YFNS about her conspiracy theories was inappropriate in tone and language. You guys have already said as much, in a handwavy way, and I have not disputed that one bit. But Vanamonde93, I had at this point, no intention of seeking administrative action against this user, nor do I think ANI is the first step in dispute resolution or the place to resolve content disputes. If you may allow me to poke you a bit in return: I'm surprised an editor with a decade of experience thinks it is. If by "administrator attention" you believe admins are wiser than other editors, what can I say. Void is testament to the fact that a stern warning can rescue an editor from a topic ban, but there is light and day between the post I made to void and the one I made to YFNS. Did you think I can't see that and need to say it out loud like a child? If you did, I feel insulted and wonder why you think the criticisms you three have made aren't acknowledged and accepted. That simply isn't my character, which I think Barkeep, WAID and Sandy can attest to. -- Colin°Talk 19:17, 13 September 2024 (UTC) Vanamonde93, I can only repeat what I said earlier I am concerned that you think an editor of 20 years should be made to perform a little dance of contrition for everyone's amusement, in order to get a more lenient sentence. Or think this weird forum with our own little boxes to write in, and word counts that seem to have gone out the window, is a sensible place for an editor to engage meaningfully with their peers/superiors about good editing practice and improvement. If you guys think I'm a valuable editor who they'd like to work in this area, if you agree with me there are issues with quality MEDRS sources being dismissed on prejudicial grounds, that disinformation is being pushed and outrageous conspiracy theories credulously promoted, and would like an editor of my calibre to deal with that, then I already made an offer to any of you to join me somewhere else for a bit of learning and improvement. That would be a respectful response I could work with. You have other options too. If you feel this area is not a good one for my mix of strengths and weaknesses, say so as one might to a friend or colleague, and I'll heed that advice. While this particular rabbit hole has rather distracted my contributions, as a fascinating area of medical controversy, I'd be off editing elsewhere. If instead you think a logged warning is called for, and I'm not arguing it isn't a fair, if rather algorithmic, response to a review of my conduct, it will certainly be enthusiastically preventative. -- Colin°Talk 15:12, 14 September 2024 (UTC) @User:Aquillion I would like to repeat Sandy's request that I be given quotes and diffs to respond to by admins minded to give or log a warning. Barkeep, the "baseless accusations of bad faith" you mention is hard for me to deal with without specifics. I suspect there is a misunderstanding about who I'm accusing of bad faith (e.g. sources that promote disinformation and conspiracy theories). Similarly with the aspersions that SFN mentions without specific quotes. That would help me a lot. I completely get it about the tone and the temperature raising and the saying things that shouldn't have been said. Sandy's comments have been the most helpful so far and I'm committed to fixing this writing approach/style, no matter where I end up editing from now on. Finding oneself here is not easy, folks, particularly when the opening request contains claims I said things I didn't say (which remains unstruck), describes all the diffs in "the strongest possible language, in the worst possible light" and which generally "misrepresent" what occurred... and today I find an editor saying that because I have friends, who admire at least some aspect of my contributions, my head should be stuck on a spike as a warning to everyone else. Sigh. -- Colin°Talk 16:25, 15 September 2024 (UTC) Loki, as with so much of this AE, people are putting words into my mouth. "but he still said that calling children who were seeking puberty blockers for gender dysphoria ..." is not what I said. I clearly literally said "the treatment of children referred to CAMHS or GIDS-equivalent centres" and the complaint by Cass referred to "all the young people on the waiting list for services". And "referred", at the time, included self-referral, whereas now it is restricted to a referral by a clinician. Understanding this patient cohort is an significant aspect of the Cass Review, something they commissioned a systematic review to investigate. It is vital that editors on that page, and similar ones, restrain themselves to the careful terminology used in our MEDRS sources (WPATH, Cass, BMJ). -- Colin°Talk 07:15, 16 September 2024 (UTC) Vanamonde93 I'm concerned that Loki's post, which conveniently misquotes my words in the worst possible light, was made after you guys had discussed the issue of people misquoting and mischaracterising my words in the worst possible light. You can't just write this off as Colin's writing style because it extends to people treating MEDRS sources in the worst possible light, based on prejudice, disinformation and conspiracy theories they have read about in the lowest quality sources. I don't think we can say that the writing style in the Cass Review or the BMJ is to blame for editors making outrageous claims about them. At some point this is going to need examined and dealt with. -- Colin°Talk 07:49, 16 September 2024 (UTC) Statement by berchanhimezThis isn't the first AE request that's been made against editors trying to follow MEDRS, and it's unlikely to be the last. There is a campaign by users for whom the ideas in the Cass Review don't support their political views, and so they are trying to get it removed from other articles (even though it's the strongest type of MEDRS - an independent systematic review) and to disparage it in its own article. Has Colin been less than ideal in his demeanor? Yes, but this is yet another example of users trying to get "first mover advantage" and remove him from this topic area so they can continue their "civil" POV pushing. The points Colin make about other editors ignoring the actual words of the document and cherrypicking sources/words to support their view are completely accurate, even if not worded ideally. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 23:39, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
Statement by SandyGeorgia
Barkeep49 and Vanamonde93 I fully get your latest posts (15:08 and 16:41) in theory, but could we examine the reality in practical terms?
All I see happening if this closes as it stands now is the same as in three cases: GENSEX continues as contentious as it has always been, Venezuelan editors left en masse, and with the exception of Ajpolino, who hangs in there, FA content production in the medical realm ended because the real issues went unaddressed, while the whole case was framed as related to drug prices, which were never the problem. And then there's the similarity in ARBMED vs GENSEX: at ARBMED, Colin's indignation over edit-warring shone through in his tone, and yet the other party's edit warring was ignored. Here, it's Colin's indignation over really poor sourcing that has led to tone concerns. Colin doesn't edit war and Colin doesn't push a POV, and yet he is to be warned while others get first-mover advantage. I don't see how this can end well. Please reassure me you've considered these factors. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:14, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
Statement by WhatamIdoingI don't think that this is helpful. The subject is difficult. There is the expected amount of POV pushing. This AE report feels to me like an effort to "win" a content dispute by banning people who disagree with you. Consider the complaint described as "Calling the use of the term “trans kids” fringe activist-language and attributing its use to American trans activism." "Trans kids" was a term I used a current discussion about whether we need WP:INTEXT attribution for a statement that "children with comorbidities did not receive adequate psychological support". "Children with comorbidities" means kids on NHS England who have been referred for gender services and who also have autism, anxiety, depression, eating disorders, and other complex needs that are not about being trans. Some editors want this statement to be labeled as merely something "The report claimed". (I disagree; I consider it a violation of MOS:CLAIM and WP:INTEXT.) This content background is necessary to understand why Colin objected to me using "trans kids" to describe these kids: "getting a referral" isn't the same as "being trans", just like "not getting a referral" isn't the same as "not being trans". I conflated the comorbid population with the trans population. We have sources saying that at the start of the multi-year Cass Review, trans advocates agreed that not every kid who was referred was actually trans, and that this shifted during the last months so that a small portion (that'd be "Fringe", right?) of the trans advocates (otherwise known as "activists", right?) started saying that every single kid who got a referral needed medical transition (e.g., puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones) and should be expected to have a lifelong trans identity.[80] Colin asked all of us to be careful and precise, which IMO is fair. However, when you pull Colin's comment out of context, or just glance over the discussion, it can be unfairly twisted to sound transphobic. Snokalok's contribution to this discussion is to say that the Cass Review is so controversial that INTEXT attribution is appropriate even when it's saying something undisputed,[81] and to say that psychological support may be a code word for conversion therapy.[82] Overall, I do feel like there are a lot of Americans (including me) involved in an article about NHS England, and I do occasionally feel like one "side" sees it in terms of American politics. There seems to be a fear that if this report isn't criticized as heavily as possible on as many grounds as possible – we even talked about whether to mention a typo in a source that was cited in the final report[83] – then bad things will happen outside of England. This is IMO just to be expected. I believe this article will be a lot easier to write in five years. In the meantime, we have to muddle through as best we can. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:07, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
Statement by LokiTheLiarAs a participant in many of these discussions, and as someone who otherwise greatly respects Colin, I'm posting here mainly to say that I agree with Snokalok's complaint. Colin especially has a bad habit of casting weird nationalistic aspersions when anyone argues that the British government or media may not be a reliable source, regardless of their evidence for this. I should also point out he does this on non-MEDRS pages as well (those diffs are both from a dispute on LGB Alliance, and they're not the only two diffs like it from that discussion), so it's definitely not just "crusty vet defending MEDRS sources against those who don't understand MEDRS". Loki (talk) 05:42, 12 September 2024 (UTC) Just wanted to say that to say this
Vanamonde93, I would like to politely suggest that you're going a little beyond assuming good faith there for Colin and consequently a little below assuming good faith for everyone he's arguing with. So for instance, I'm very aware that Colin's criticism here is technically speaking making a pretty technical argument... but he still said that calling children who were seeking puberty blockers for gender dysphoria "trans kids" is I could make similar arguments for the other things you've argued are misrepresentations, but I'd go way over the word limit and frankly I think you already get my gist. Loki (talk) 01:57, 16 September 2024 (UTC) Statement by starship.paint (3)I just read the diffs above by Loki on supposed weird nationalistic aspersions by Colin, as well as some of the context. It seems that there was a discussion where five British sources were brought in to back up a certain point. The British sources, BBC, The Daily Telegraph, The Guardian, The Independent, The Times, cover a substantial spectrum of British views, and are quite well-rated on WP:RSP (though the Telegraph was temporarily downgraded to marginally on trans issues at the time of the discussion, the rest are generally reliable). Some editors responded by seemingly rejecting British sources altogether and directly comparing them to other countries such as Russia and Hungary, and that pretty much explains Colin's responses for Loki's diffs. starship.paint (RUN) 08:39, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
@ScottishFinnishRadish: - it seems that your
@LokiTheLiar: - you highlighted YNFS' source and stated that there's every reason to think they're reliable for this information, but this source literally
@Raladic: - I am quite surprised that you consider Void if removed as hounding you when they looked at your contributions to an WP:AE complaint you literally started against them. I would expect every ‘defendant’ at AE to meticulously scrutinise the AE complaint against them, this is not cause for sanctions at all. starship.paint (RUN) 01:05, 14 September 2024 (UTC) Statement by Licks-rocksI don't much like AE discussions, and I don't tune in to the discussion at issue much anymore either, but I will say that I've grown quite annoyed at Colin's attitude towards the topic. Whenever I get involved with him in a discussion, the first thing I have to do is wade through a veritable river of small and larger misrepresentations about both what his conversational partners have said, and what the sources say. He has a bad habit of assuming the worst in other editors, and thus attacking the worst possible interpretation of their position, rather than the position those editors actually hold. I and others have called him out on this several times already [85] [86]. In addition, as visible in the diffs snokalok already provided, he is consistently extremely dismissive of anything that writes negatively about the cass review, whether that be statements from WPATH, peer reviewed papers of any kind, or anything else, and will accuse other editors of bias when they argue back. Just in this last discussion he dismissively referred to a peer reviewed analysis of language used in the cass revieuw as an "activist's opinion piece" [87][88][89] and berated me for referring to it as anything else, in doing so again repeatedly insinuating that I and YFNS don't understand how peer review works. The paper in question is peer reviewed, not in the opinion section, and consists of a literature analysis. That's just not conductive to productive discussion! And yes, he did indeed berate YFNS for colloquially using the words "trans kids" in a discussion, calling it "fringe activist language", though he later walked it back a bit. This agressive, uncompromising, and accusatory attitude is extremely tiring and grinds discussions to a complete halt.--Licks-rocks (talk) 11:43, 12 September 2024 (UTC) Statement by Void if removedColin is the sort of editor I can only aspire to be. Methodical, precise and absolutely focused on the best possible sources - and we disagree hugely on much of GENSEX, having butted heads many, many times, but always scrupulously fairly. Cass review needs more editors like this, not fewer. After being subjected to AE myself just days ago, I find it very hard to WP:AGF at this attempt to remove an editor of Colin’s calibre. This looks like an attempt to bully and "win" content disputes. I agree completely with whatamidoing’s assessment of "trans kids" - in this specific context, it is unhelpful language, and its better to stick to the Cass Review's phrasing. There is a dispute in healthcare in this area and sticking precisely to what sources say and how they say it helps navigate, even if editors don’t personally like it. The descriptions of the other diffs are disingenuous and misrepresented, eg. the "activist rage" comment is directed not at editors, but the authors of terrible sources. The "Council of Europe" responses also I think need to be seen in the context of protracted cases of WP:IDHT, with several editors on GENSEX UK topics repeatedly attempting to use a partisan political statement from a subcommittee of the Council of Europe as a trump card against UK WP:RS, even MEDRS. See this from Snokalok as part of the chain on July 20th. In the AE request against me, Raladic used it to attack another editor, and disparage the UK legal system. It comes up time and again, in all sorts of contexts, from the same handful of editors trying to use it to exclude or question WP:RS from the UK. Bringing it up again in this AE report is somewhere between WP:IDHT and WP:RGW, and if Colin is fed up with it, he isn’t alone. I'd be glad to see a page ban for any editor repeatedly flogging this dead horse.Void if removed (talk) 13:31, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Your Friendly Neighborhood SociologistI'll preface this with I don't believe Colin should be banned from GENSEX, and I find it funny that multiple editors have called it a POV-pushing attempt to TBAN someone when nobody has said they should be TBANNED... That being said, I think a logged civility warning and/or bludgeoning restriction are probably for the best. Perhaps also a cool off block from the topic of the Cass Review, but I'd hope that can be avoided. The tirades on my talk page were particularly tiring -
Colin also threatened Snokalok with a TBAN for noting the Cass Review's FAQ on their website is hardly WP:INDEPENDENT [92] He has then accused Loki of being in "moon landing conspiracy territory" and threatened them with a TBAN for saying the Cass review is fallible.[93] Colin has been responding to any and all criticism of the Cass review by handwaving them away as "activists" and etc, repeatedly argued to exclude criticisms of the Cass Review from its article, and generally seems to be treating it like holy writ which cannot be criticized on any basis. The Cass Review is not universally well accepted by the medical community, and in fact has been quite criticized on multiple fronts (by human rights orgs and medical orgs and LGBT RS and etc). I'd like to see a warning to treat other editors civilly and not continue insisting everywhere that the Cass Review is somehow infallible. I hope this is a wake-up call for Colin, because I think he's overall a valuable contributor to GENSEX, but am frankly sick and tired of his knee-jerk defense of the Cass Review from any and all criticism and his incivility doing so. Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 18:33, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
Statement by RaladicI wasn't going to comment on this, but incidentally, Colin's own latest statement in the AE report here now forced me to. This repeated attacks on Dr. Horton are reaching WP:DEFAMATION levels and may actually require WP:OVERSIGHT. Dr. Horton has several years of research experience and is an expert on transgender healthcare. You're welcome to read the draft User:Raladic/Cal Horton of their experienced and published research on the topic. It also seriously puts into question if Colin is acting in good faith on following MEDRS if he himself isn't actually able to leave his emotions in check and realize that this isn't just a random "activist" as he puts it, but an expert on transgender care who has dedicated several years of their career to it. To show how systemic this repeated denigration from Colin on this has been, admins can refer to [96] and [97] where another user (who appeared to have been an SPA to advance anti-trans points and was recently TBANNED from GENSEX) tried to repeat Colins earlier defamatory comments about Dr. Horton and those were revdeleted due to the defamatory nature by another admin. One a separate note as it appears Void if removed is still hounding my edits as they are posting a diff to a comment that is not actually in the live comment that I made to another user as I reworded it a few minutes after the diff they linked, as you can see in the archived section, so the only reason they would have this diff is if they are somehow hounding my edits. I request they remove/strike their baseless accusation of me "attacking another editor" (with a diff that's not even live as I pointed out) as I simply linked to an article on Wikipedia, which summarizes the RS view, so calling what reliable sources report an attack is baseless. Since I did point out VIR may be hounding me in the original AE report and this appears to be another case to support this, may an admin advise on this? Raladic (talk) 15:50, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
Statement by AquillionWhile I know that a single AE case cannot solve the problems of an entire topic area, one thing I would like administrators to keep in mind is the number of responses, above, that describe Colin's behavior as something to be emulated. This report is imperfect but the diffs above still document an extented history of WP:ASPERSIONs and a willingness to approach the topic area as a WP:BATTLEGROUND - an approach some some of the comments by others above also reflect, in a way that shows how that sort of incivility metastasizes and spreads. Colin is experienced enough to know that that isn't how editors are supposed to interact with each other. When that sort of thing isn't met with some form of formal sanction, especially when coupled with a lack of contrition or any recognition that they've done something wrong, it is taken by everyone involved as permission to raise the temperature further, which is part of how the topic area has reached its current unpleasant state. If it's necessary to create reports for other people in the topic area then do it, but in terms of purely preventative measures that might help the topic area become more bearable, statements like Statement by TryptofishI've been quietly watching this AE thread, and did not particularly want to involve myself. I want to say right off that I have long disagreed with Colin, and I'm sure that he and his friends would regard me as someone biased against him. That said, I want to strongly endorse what Aquillion has said in his statement just above. Whatever else may or may not be going on here, and whether or not anyone else has unclean hands in making accusations against Colin, those comments are important for AE admins to consider seriously. As some have already noted, in the Medicine case, ArbCom made a finding of fact about Colin: [98]. Ultimately, it doesn't mean any less because of how the Arbs voted, because it is still part of the final decision, and Colin should know about it. And look at the first diff of the three diffs listed there by the Arbs, and what he said about me, and most importantly, the way he said it. Based on that experience, here is what I said then on the case request page: [99]. I was near to quitting Wikipedia over how it made me feel (so my reluctance to comment now isn't new). And here is the evidence I provided in that case: [100]. If you go to the second heading of March 30, and the paragraph starting "But Colin then entered the discussion, saying... ", and follow the diffs there, you'll see that the issues raised in the current AE thread have been going on a long time, with Colin issued an FoF back then, and a similar attitude continuing here, with little sign of repentance. Even if he is right on the content issues, ArbCom has correctly determined that being right isn't enough, and that principle should guide AE admins now. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:35, 15 September 2024 (UTC) Statement by Graham BeardsDoes anyone know on which side Colin stands with regard to the trans debate? No. This is the mark of a neutral editor. All I see is a respected editor upholding our values such as writing from a neutral point of view and being true to reliable sources against a barrage of biased edits. To say that Colin should be held to a higher standard because of his solid reputation as a valued editor, is ridiculous beyond words. Colin's debating style can come across as blunt, particularly if he disagrees with you, but he never acts in bad faith and never has. Given the false accusations posted at the top of this discussion, the OP should be given a good telling off and this report closed. Contentious topics are "contentious" and we should welcome a lively debate. I don't see anything disruptive in Collin's posts; just a well-argued case for sticking to and respecting reliable sources and not cherry-picking them to push a personal agenda. Graham Beards (talk) 15:15, 16 September 2024 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning Colin
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BumbleBeeBelle
ECR clarified with BumbleBeeBelle. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:23, 20 September 2024 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning BumbleBeeBelle
This user does not have 500 edits, therefore can not edit any topic in the Arab-Israeli conflict area. Not only have they violated that, they have done so in a POV way.
This user should not be editing this space.
Discussion concerning BumbleBeeBelleStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by BumbleBeeBelleStatement by Vice_regentAlright thanks, I've started using that template.VR (Please ping on reply) 01:03, 18 September 2024 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning BumbleBeeBelle
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